Surprise round question

So now I'm questioning my decision. Wondering how others would handle it.

Party is tracking a band of goblins across a grassland that kidnapped a young woman. They are ambushed by a small group of goblins and wolves. It's night, they have 2 torches lit. Grass is waist high, easy enough to hide goblins, though wolves need to be prone.

Goblins roll high stealth. Only one with high enough passive perception to notice would be the ranger, but she's tracking, so by the travel rules she doesn't get a perception to notice. Wolves roll abysmally low, so everyone would notice them.

Question 1: Do you roll a Stealth check for each group of monster, or just one? Which Stealth do you use? Higher (goblin +6)? Or lower (wolf +4)? Or split the difference (+5)? Or maybe lower, but advantage (for the Help action)?

I then gave the goblins a surprise round, but left the wolves out. I am wondering if that was correct.

Question 2: Should I instead have given no surprise round (players should have known something was there, because terrible wolf rolls) and given the goblins advantage on their first attacks for being hidden?

Thanks for the input.

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First off, there is no surprise round. There's only the first round of combat.

You then roll Stealth checks for the goblins and wolves, as many or as few as you prefer... so you can do it where every single creature makes a check, or every couple make a check, or all goblins as one group and all wolves as another each make group checks for a total of two checks, or the entire group of enemies make a single group check using whichever Stealth mod you prefer.

You compare the one to X number of Stealth checks against the passive perceptions of each member of the party. Any party member whose passive perception is less than any of the Stealth checks does not get to act in this first round of combat because they were unaware of every single threat out there. But those PCs whose passive perception were higher than at least one of the Stealth checks does get to act in the first round because they saw/heard/smelled/noticed at least one threat out there. Not all of them obviously, but at least one-- and that put the PC on alert and allows them to act in the first round of combat (along with all the monsters who were already aware of the PCs).

That's how it's meant to work. The biggest question as the DM though is deciding just how many Stealth checks you make for your monsters. The more rolls you make, the more likely you are going to roll poorly on at least one of them and thus alert ALL of the PCs and thus nobody is surprised. In your particular case... most DMs would probably roll a single check for all the goblins and a single check for all the wolves (since they have two different Stealth check modifiers.) But you are also within your right as the DM to roll a single Stealth check for the entire group of enemies, doing exactly as you suggested... using the higher modifier, the lower, or split the difference. It's really up to you.

As an extra point in your particular scenario... I personally would let the enemies roll with advantage on their Stealth checks because of the grass and it being night time. Also, were there to be any party members awake and keeping watch... I'd allow those members to roll Perception checks rather than only use their passive numbers (so they have a better chance to spot the enemies.) That being said... their passive numbers would still apply, so even if they rolled under their passive number on the active Perception check, they'd still get their passive as a minimum. Thus if any of those on watch rolled over at least one of the Stealth checks, then that watcher would get to act in the first round as well.

Okay, cool. I know better for next time. And I know it's not a surprise round anymore. Gah! Was in a hurry to get the opening combat post out before leaving work and it slipped my mind. Thanks.

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KahlessNestor said:

Okay, cool. I know better for next time. And I know it's not a surprise round anymore. Gah! Was in a hurry to get the opening combat post out before leaving work and it slipped my mind. Thanks.

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No problem! Oh, and I forgot to mention that any creatures that are sleeping I think are supposed to have Disadvantage on their passive perception checks (meaning that their PP is at -5.) I'm pretty sure there's a rule in the book somewhere about that (perhaps one of the Conditions mentions giving disad on perception checks while unconscious) I just don't recall off-hand the exact rule / location of said rule.

Although even if there's not a rule that specifically says that sleeping creatures have Disadvantage on Perception checks (and -5 on passive perception), I make a DM ruling myself personally that says they do.

DEFCON 1 said:

No problem! Oh, and I forgot to mention that any creatures that are sleeping I think are supposed to have Disadvantage on their passive perception checks (meaning that their PP is at -5.) I'm pretty sure there's a rule in the book somewhere about that (perhaps one of the Conditions mentions giving disad on perception checks while unconscious) I just don't recall off-hand the exact rule / location of said rule.

Although even if there's not a rule that specifically says that sleeping creatures have Disadvantage on Perception checks (and -5 on passive perception), I make a DM ruling myself personally that says they do.

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From Appendix A of the Basic Rules: "An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings."

I regard sleeping creatures as unconscious. Elves, for example, remain "semiconscious" when trancing, which implies that sleep renders one completely unconscious. In my games, a sleeping creature autofails any check that depends on awareness of its surroundings (such as a Perception check). Also, a sleeping creature is unable to undertake actions and/or reactions due to being incapacitated, so unable to take the Search action for example.

Also remember that torches only provide bright light out to 20 feet, and dim light to an additional 20 feet.

Perception checks are at disadvantage if you are lightly obscured (such as dim light). So detecting the goblins and wolves would likely be at disadvantage (or -5 to passive perception) until they got close enough to move in to attack for many of the characters.

While creatures with darkvision treat dim light as bright light, total darkness is still the equivalent of dim light. In situations like this I always make sure I know who's carrying the torch and where they are in relation to the characters with darkvision.

Hriston said:

From Appendix A of the Basic Rules: "An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings."

I regard sleeping creatures as unconscious. Elves, for example, remain "semiconscious" when trancing, which implies that sleep renders one completely unconscious. In my games, a sleeping creature autofails any check that depends on awareness of its surroundings (such as a Perception check). Also, a sleeping creature is unable to undertake actions and/or reactions due to being incapacitated, so unable to take the Search action for example.

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The part I bolded is a serious logical disconnect.

That ruling leads to absurdity; specifically: I'm asleep, someone creeps into my room and then fires a .45 magnum next to me. Not to hurt me, just to wake me up and frighten me because he's a jerk.

We all know that this would result in, at the very least, me waking up. The loud noise would wake me up because I'm not deaf and falling asleep doesn't make you deaf.

But your ruling means that I cannot wake up because, "In my games a sleeping creature autofails any check that depends on awareness of its surroundings (such as a Perception check)".

Perhaps you could revisit that particular ruling...?

Arial Black said:

The part I bolded is a serious logical disconnect.

That ruling leads to absurdity; specifically: I'm asleep, someone creeps into my room and then fires a .45 magnum next to me. Not to hurt me, just to wake me up and frighten me because he's a jerk.

We all know that this would result in, at the very least, me waking up. The loud noise would wake me up because I'm not deaf and falling asleep doesn't make you deaf.

But your ruling means that I cannot wake up because, "In my games a sleeping creature autofails any check that depends on awareness of its surroundings (such as a Perception check)".

Perhaps you could revisit that particular ruling...?

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Your "logical disconnect" is in thinking a Perception check is required to hear and be awakened by a gun shot going off next to your head. Why on earth would it require a Perception check to hear any loud or even normal level of noise within hearing range? In the games for which I DM, hearing any such noise is automatic, and a sleeping creature is nearly always awakened by a loud noise. So, while in the situation you describe, there would be no chance of you hearing and being awakened by the person sneaking into your room, the gunshot would result in your immediately regaining full consciousness, no check required. Does that clear things up?

Arial Black said:

The part I bolded is a serious logical disconnect.

That ruling leads to absurdity; specifically: I'm asleep, someone creeps into my room and then fires a .45 magnum next to me. Not to hurt me, just to wake me up and frighten me because he's a jerk.

We all know that this would result in, at the very least, me waking up. The loud noise would wake me up because I'm not deaf and falling asleep doesn't make you deaf.

But your ruling means that I cannot wake up because, "In my games a sleeping creature autofails any check that depends on awareness of its surroundings (such as a Perception check)".

Perhaps you could revisit that particular ruling...?

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*EDIT* - He beat me to his answer himself! Heh!

If I had to guess, I'd imagine Hriston's answer would be that as waking up from a gunshot was a certainty, no Perception check would be necessary in the first place and thus his particular ruling could remain as is.

What his ruling does do is make it such that sleeping creatures will not be able to wake up were creatures sneaking into their camp (for example). Thus having people on guard are necessary. Which I can certainly understand, as I myself find it rather annoying when PCs are all assumed to be able to snap awake at a moment's notice at the slightest sound provocation. Most people do not do that, so that's the kind of special ability that I'd reserve for rare cases. Probably ones who've taken the Alert feat, under the idea that because they cannot be surprised they are the characters who are the extremely light sleepers. All other characters need their full 6-8 hours, much of it in deep REM.