Surprise round question

[Dausuul]

Question 1: Do you roll a Stealth check for each group of monster, or just one? Which Stealth do you use? Higher (goblin +6)? Or lower (wolf +4)? Or split the difference (+5)? Or maybe lower, but advantage (for the Help action)?

If a bunch of creatures are together, I typically have them roll Stealth as a single group, using the lowest modifier among the members. Only if the groups were approaching separately would I give them separate rolls.

Question 2: Should I instead have given no surprise round (players should have known something was there, because terrible wolf rolls) and given the goblins advantage on their first attacks for being hidden?

Yes, that would be how I'd approach it. If the groups are approaching separately, the goblins remain hidden, but the wolves alert the party to the presence of danger and thus blow any chance for surprise.

 

[Arial Black]

Your "logical disconnect" is in thinking a Perception check is required to hear and be awakened by a gun shot going off next to your head. Why on earth would it require a Perception check to hear any loud or even normal level of noise within hearing range? In the games for which I DM, hearing any such noise is automatic, and a sleeping creature is nearly always awakened by a loud noise. So, while in the situation you describe, there would be no chance of you hearing and being awakened by the person sneaking into your room, the gunshot would result in your immediately regaining full consciousness, no check required. Does that clear things up?

You base your ruling on what it says for the Unconscious condition:-

An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can’t move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings

So you rule that, since a sleeping creature is unconscious and unconscious creatures are 'unaware of their surroundings', that sleeping creatures cannot hear anything.

Is that your ruling? If it is, then sleeping creatures simply cannot hear the gun so the loud noise cannot awaken them because it cannot be heard by sleeping creatures.

If that is not your ruling, if you rule that sleeping creatures can be awoken by sounds, that makes sense because if something wakes you up then you are no longer unconscious.

That leaves the question: how loud does the sound have to be to awaken a sleeper?

The DM can certainly rule that a noise is so loud that it will auto-wake a non-deaf sleeper.

The DM can certainly rule that a noise is so quiet that no sleeper could possibly hear it.

But, this being an adventure game and all, there will be plenty of situations where a noise might awaken a sleeper, or it might not. It would depend on how quiet the noise (Stealth check for creature trying to be quiet) AND how sharp the hearing of the sleeper (Perception check).

It must also be admitted that creatures are less alert when they are asleep, all things being equal, than when they are awake. Therefore, sleeping creatures have disadvantage on their Perception checks to find out whether they are awoken by a noise.

In real life I have slept through some rackets in my time, but I have also been awoken by someone trying to be stealthy. My friend snuck into my room to borrow a book because I work nights and he didn't want to wake me. I was fast asleep. He tried to quietly pull the book from a pile (think Jenga) but that *slide thunk* woke me up even though it was quiet. He was annoyed because he thought he was stealthy enough to go through the whole book-borrowing process without waking me. I was annoyed because I thought I'd wake up as soon as anyone came into my room.

If this was 5E, his Stealth beat my Perception when he opened my door and came up the steps, but my Perception beat his Stealth when he tried to silently slide the book out. From a game perspective, everything is working fine.

What would not be fine is if the DM ruled that sleeping creatures can never be woken by someone simply trying to be sneaky! Especially on the spurious grounds that sleeping creatures cannot hear, and the next second saying that creatures that cannot hear can hear gunshots!

Let them roll. Give disadvantage to the sleeper, maybe even advantage to the sneaker too, but for Gygax's sake let them roll!

Nothing is less fun than saying your PC is going to sleep and then the DM just announcing that you got killed in the night without any rolls at all.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So what you're saying is that the DM should make a ruling and not necessarily follow a rule?

I think that's what Hriston was already saying.

 

[Hriston]

You base your ruling on what it says for the Unconscious condition:-



So you rule that, since a sleeping creature is unconscious and unconscious creatures are 'unaware of their surroundings', that sleeping creatures cannot hear anything.

Is that your ruling?

No, it isn't. You can still hear when asleep. You just aren't aware of what you're hearing.

If that is not your ruling, if you rule that sleeping creatures can be awoken by sounds, that makes sense because if something wakes you up then you are no longer unconscious.

I'm glad my ruling now makes sense to you.

That leaves the question: how loud does the sound have to be to awaken a sleeper?

It's up to the DM, isn't it? My ruling is that loud noise awakens sleeping creatures. That way, adventurers can carry on normal levels of noise without awakening their sleeping companions.

But, this being an adventure game and all, there will be plenty of situations where a noise might awaken a sleeper, or it might not.

Not necessarily. You could just do what I do and make a decision about what noise level is loud enough to wake someone up. It doesn't seem particularly adventurous to me for members of the party to have to sneak around the campsite to avoid waking up their sleeping companions. That leads to only high DEX characters being able to keep watch if anyone wants to get a good night's sleep.

In real life I have slept through some rackets in my time, but I have also been awoken by someone trying to be stealthy. My friend snuck into my room to borrow a book because I work nights and he didn't want to wake me. I was fast asleep. He tried to quietly pull the book from a pile (think Jenga) but that *slide thunk* woke me up even though it was quiet. He was annoyed because he thought he was stealthy enough to go through the whole book-borrowing process without waking me. I was annoyed because I thought I'd wake up as soon as anyone came into my room.

If this was 5E, his Stealth beat my Perception when he opened my door and came up the steps, but my Perception beat his Stealth when he tried to silently slide the book out. From a game perspective, everything is working fine.

I wouldn't run it that way. Your friend declared his intent to enter the room quietly, so noise levels were not high enough to wake you. Removing the book, however, is not an attempt at being stealthy. Based on his approach of pulling the book out from the middle of the pile I might decide you automatically wake up or stay asleep, or I might set a DC on a Sleight of Hand check if I think it's uncertain.

What would not be fine is if the DM ruled that sleeping creatures can never be woken by someone simply trying to be sneaky!

It's perfectly fine and works wonderfully in my games. It's also consistent with treating sleeping creatures as having the Unconscious condition. You're free to do things as you like in your games, of course.

Nothing is less fun than saying your PC is going to sleep and then the DM just announcing that you got killed in the night without any rolls at all.

That doesn't happen in my games. Sounds of battle are very loud, so at the least you have a chance of waking up and immediately rolling initiative. You might be surprised, however, if conditions are appropriate for hiding and your attacker's Stealth beats or ties your passive Perception.

 

[Arial Black]

I wouldn't run it that way. Your friend declared his intent to enter the room quietly, so noise levels were not high enough to wake you. Removing the book, however, is not an attempt at being stealthy. Based on his approach of pulling the book out from the middle of the pile I might decide you automatically wake up or stay asleep, or I might set a DC on a Sleight of Hand check if I think it's uncertain.

Oh, my friend definitely tried to remove the book from the pile slowly, carefully and above all quietly. The quiet sound woke me anyway.

Sounds of battle are very loud, so at the least you have a chance of waking up and immediately rolling initiative. You might be surprised, however, if conditions are appropriate for hiding and your attacker's Stealth beats or ties your passive Perception.

My PC is asleep in his room by himself. A ninja, as stealthily as he is able (high Stealth) opens the bedroom window, sneaks up to my bed, draws his dagger and slits my throat.

As a player, I would expect opposed Stealth/Perception checks. The ninja might have a high Stealth but I have a high Perception thank you very much!

So what wins? My Perception or his Stealth? If only the 5E rules could help us....!

Wait! They do! Roll an opposed Stealth/Perception contest! Sure, I'm asleep, so go ahead and impose disadvantage on my Perception check.

There are no 'sounds of battle' here. From your posts I would 'autofail' my Perception check. You would just inform me that I was killed in my sleep. Oh, what fun.

 

[Flamestrike]

No, it isn't. You can still hear when asleep. You just aren't aware of what you're hearing.



I'm glad my ruling now makes sense to you.



It's up to the DM, isn't it? My ruling is that loud noise awakens sleeping creatures. That way, adventurers can carry on normal levels of noise without awakening their sleeping companions.



Not necessarily. You could just do what I do and make a decision about what noise level is loud enough to wake someone up. It doesn't seem particularly adventurous to me for members of the party to have to sneak around the campsite to avoid waking up their sleeping companions. That leads to only high DEX characters being able to keep watch if anyone wants to get a good night's sleep.



I wouldn't run it that way. Your friend declared his intent to enter the room quietly, so noise levels were not high enough to wake you. Removing the book, however, is not an attempt at being stealthy. Based on his approach of pulling the book out from the middle of the pile I might decide you automatically wake up or stay asleep, or I might set a DC on a Sleight of Hand check if I think it's uncertain.



It's perfectly fine and works wonderfully in my games. It's also consistent with treating sleeping creatures as having the Unconscious condition. You're free to do things as you like in your games, of course.



That doesn't happen in my games. Sounds of battle are very loud, so at the least you have a chance of waking up and immediately rolling initiative. You might be surprised, however, if conditions are appropriate for hiding and your attacker's Stealth beats or ties your passive Perception.

Man I give them a perception check at disadvantage.

Ive certainly woken up to someone entering my room before. And to other much quieter than a gunshot near my ear also.

 

[Hriston]

Oh, my friend definitely tried to remove the book from the pile slowly, carefully and above all quietly. The quiet sound woke me anyway.

Maybe you weren't as deeply asleep as you seem to think you were. Maybe you would have woken up anyways. Or maybe pulling a book out from the middle of a pile without waking a nearby sleeping creature is a difficult task and your friend failed to roll a 15.

My PC is asleep in his room by himself. A ninja, as stealthily as he is able (high Stealth) opens the bedroom window, sneaks up to my bed, draws his dagger and slits my throat.

I don't do attacks outside of combat. The sound of the dagger being drawn wakes you up. There's a black-clad form looming over you, holding a dagger. Roll initiative.

As a player, I would expect opposed Stealth/Perception checks. The ninja might have a high Stealth but I have a high Perception thank you very much!

If circumstances are appropriate for hiding in the room where you are sleeping then you'll get that contest, but not before you wake up.

So what wins? My Perception or his Stealth? If only the 5E rules could help us....!

Wait! They do! Roll an opposed Stealth/Perception contest! Sure, I'm asleep, so go ahead and impose disadvantage on my Perception check.

Since I wait until you're awake, I don't need to impose a penalty on your Perception score. And here you are trying to say I'm a mean DM trying to kill your character.

There are no 'sounds of battle' here. From your posts I would 'autofail' my Perception check. You would just inform me that I was killed in my sleep. Oh, what fun.

When I said "sounds of battle" up-thread, my intention was to state that as soon as combat begins, any sleeping paricipants wake up. Stealth/Perception contests can occur then with no penalty for having been asleep.

Man I give them a perception check at disadvantage.

What if no one's trying to be stealthy? Do you still ask for a Perception check from the sleepers? I don't bother with disadvantage. If they are attacked, they wake up.

Ive certainly woken up to someone entering my room before. And to other much quieter than a gunshot near my ear also.

The gunshot was [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION]'s corner case in which he put forth the assumption that in my games sleeping creatures can't hear because they are unaware of their surroundings. I agree with you that noises much less loud than a gunshot can indeed awaken you. I don't think a higher granularity of noise levels than quiet, moderate/normal, and loud is really helpful for running a good game, however.

 

[Flamestrike]

What if no one's trying to be stealthy? Do you still ask for a Perception check from the sleepers? I don't bother with disadvantage. If they are attacked, they wake up.

A fixed perception check from those sleeping works.

Of course, I generally prefer to have my players roll perception vs (passive) Stealth (10+Stealth) than the other way around (unless I want them unaware something is hiding from them)

 

[Arial Black]

Maybe you weren't as deeply asleep as you seem to think you were. Maybe you would have woken up anyways. Or maybe pulling a book out from the middle of a pile without waking a nearby sleeping creature is a difficult task and your friend failed to roll a 15.

See, that's where rolls come in!

I don't do attacks outside of combat. The sound of the dagger being drawn wakes you up. There's a black-clad form looming over you, holding a dagger. Roll initiative.

Whoa! That changes everything!

Here I was, reading what you wrote (sleeping creatures autofail Perception checks) and concluding that your ruling makes no sense because in any game I ever heard of it's the Perception check that determines whether you wake up or not and you seem to deny them a chance to wake up.....and it turns out that creatures 'auto-wake-up' when combat is about to start!

It's very strange. It's good for the players because they don't want their PCs to be killed in their sleep. It's bad for PC assassins who have zero chance of attacking a sleeping person because the person will wake up no matter the precautions.

 

[Hriston]

A fixed perception check from those sleeping works.

That's cool. I guess I just run Perception a little differently than you and some of the other posters in this thread. In my games, Perception is only for those who are keeping watch. If you aren't keeping an eye out for hidden threats, I don't consult your Perception score, and that goes for sleeping people as well.

Whoa! That changes everything!

Here I was, reading what you wrote (sleeping creatures autofail Perception checks) and concluding that your ruling makes no sense because in any game I ever heard of it's the Perception check that determines whether you wake up or not and you seem to deny them a chance to wake up.....and it turns out that creatures 'auto-wake-up' when combat is about to start!

I guess I should have explained that to begin with. I was thinking in terms of exploration, however, rather than combat, because that's usually where you find players declaring that their characters are going to sleep. In the OP I don't think anyone was asleep, so I really wasn't speaking to the ambush situation presented there. But yeah, if combat begins while anyone is sleeping, I have them immediately wake up, usually explained by some noise or commotion, or just the imminence of the attack jolting them to consciousness.

It's very strange. It's good for the players because they don't want their PCs to be killed in their sleep. It's bad for PC assassins who have zero chance of attacking a sleeping person because the person will wake up no matter the precautions.

To clarify, because I've made some statements here that may be seen as contradictory, if circumstances are appropriate for hiding, such as a dark room (not an unusual situation to find someone asleep), an assassin can get surprise by just declaring that he sneaks up on the sleeper and may have the opportunity to get within very close striking range before declaring an attack and starting combat. For comparison, I would also auto-award surprise if a creature was ambushed while mapping or foraging. On the other hand, I'm not going to make attacking a sleeping creature more powerful than getting surprise some other way. I also don't think it's very realistic for a creature to stay asleep while someone is plunging a knife into them no matter how low a Perception score it has.