Specifically, the short rest style casting mechanics with feat-like enhancements (incantations + metamagic). It would mean Sorcs are the rapid-fire type caster class that doesn't need to do a lot of pre-planning and can focus on blasting (something warlocks are naturally good at anyway). Mechanically, they'd play quite a bit like warlocks with ranged and melee-ish builds. Even most of the warlock specializations would easily make sense for a sorc if you reflavored them away from some unknown dangerous source of evil power.
D&D 5E Sorcerer Rebalance, Through Flexible Casting And Wizard Spells
Specifically, the short rest style casting mechanics with feat-like enhancements (incantations + metamagic). It would mean Sorcs are the rapid-fire type caster class that doesn't need to do a lot of pre-planning and can focus on blasting (something warlocks are naturally good at anyway). Mechanically, they'd play quite a bit like warlocks with ranged and melee-ish builds. Even most of the warlock specializations would easily make sense for a sorc if you reflavored them away from some unknown dangerous source of evil power.
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
Someone mentioned this the other day in another thread. Smite has errata stating that smite can be used with any spell slot.
MostlyHarmless42
Adventurer
A couple of comments from what I've seen here thus far.
For the original idea suggested, I don't think it would cause any sort of balance issue to use what you have suggested. However, I do feel as though Sorcerer *should* have their own spell list. The problem is that the wizard list at present is just...better. Tweaking the sorcerer list to add a few spells, and perhaps knocking a few off of the wizard list would help fix this issue, but the problem is practically anyone you speak with will have a different opinion as to what spells should be on each list. I suggest you figure out which spells feel most "like a sorcerer" to you and go with it.
I do not actually think that the sorcerer is that bad off compared to the wizard. The problem is that there is a misconception based off of previous editions that the sorcerer has more spells per day than the wizard. Sure in older editions this was the case. However, the 5e sorcerer is NOT the same class anymore. The issue is that they standardized spellcasting by giving everyone the same number of slots and casting mechanics, while not giving sorcerers enough to compensate from previous editions. What the sorcerer needs is enough mechanics to constitute the idea of being a spellcasting who manipulates raw magical power. I do agree with the sentiments that I really wish they had combined sorcerer and warlock, or the idea that perhaps sorcerers should've been the ones to get arcane recovery instead of wizards, but we kind of have to work with what we have. Metamagic is a great concept. The problem we have is threefold:
1) Sorcerers really should have more than just two to use before level 10. To be honest I really think they should have just known the whole list of metamagic effects, or twice what they know now at least. That would mean needing to add something for their later levels to give them features, but that would be a great concept.
2) Sorcerers do not have enough metamagic points. All of you other suggested changes ultimately really amount to this one issue. Rather than tweaking with costs and other complicated things, you could simply look into ways to give the sorcerer more points. First, I really don't like the idea of sorcerer bloodline abilities costing points. They newer bloodlines seem to be doing away with this, but the issue is it just makes them more desirable than the old ones without any sort of update to the older ones. Second, the amount of points they give you each long rest is nowhere near enough to use them often enough, which is boring from a player perspective. An easy fix would make them function like ki, in that they are recovered after every short rest. However, that alone is way too powerful as the cost to using them as spell slots would likely need to be changed, as that is a fair amount of extra power if not (though this would make for a decent higher level ability, perhaps to replace the metamagic stuff that would get cut off in my above suggestion?). Another decent comprise would be perhaps to give sorcerers an "arcane recovery" type option, but make it recovering spell points (perhaps half your level, usually leave once per short rest?).
3) Wizards need to back the f*** off of metamagic. Like it or not, it's now the sorcerer's 'thing'. You have yours already, more spells known/prepared, more effective slots via arcane recovery, and ritual casting. This means no metamagic feats, and no wizard traditions with metamagic (looking at you UA Lore wizard with your Alchemical stuff!). If you wanted metamagic you should've rolled a sorcerer! >_<
Related note: if we are harking back to days of old, perhaps sorcerers should have some type of ability akin to the old Eschew Materials. Perhaps let them count themselves as an arcane focus for the purpose of spells?
Other related note: Seriously Wizards, back the f*** off! Why is every one of your new archetypes effectively stealing other class's thunder? I'm looking at you Thurge!
For the original idea suggested, I don't think it would cause any sort of balance issue to use what you have suggested. However, I do feel as though Sorcerer *should* have their own spell list. The problem is that the wizard list at present is just...better. Tweaking the sorcerer list to add a few spells, and perhaps knocking a few off of the wizard list would help fix this issue, but the problem is practically anyone you speak with will have a different opinion as to what spells should be on each list. I suggest you figure out which spells feel most "like a sorcerer" to you and go with it.
I do not actually think that the sorcerer is that bad off compared to the wizard. The problem is that there is a misconception based off of previous editions that the sorcerer has more spells per day than the wizard. Sure in older editions this was the case. However, the 5e sorcerer is NOT the same class anymore. The issue is that they standardized spellcasting by giving everyone the same number of slots and casting mechanics, while not giving sorcerers enough to compensate from previous editions. What the sorcerer needs is enough mechanics to constitute the idea of being a spellcasting who manipulates raw magical power. I do agree with the sentiments that I really wish they had combined sorcerer and warlock, or the idea that perhaps sorcerers should've been the ones to get arcane recovery instead of wizards, but we kind of have to work with what we have. Metamagic is a great concept. The problem we have is threefold:
1) Sorcerers really should have more than just two to use before level 10. To be honest I really think they should have just known the whole list of metamagic effects, or twice what they know now at least. That would mean needing to add something for their later levels to give them features, but that would be a great concept.
2) Sorcerers do not have enough metamagic points. All of you other suggested changes ultimately really amount to this one issue. Rather than tweaking with costs and other complicated things, you could simply look into ways to give the sorcerer more points. First, I really don't like the idea of sorcerer bloodline abilities costing points. They newer bloodlines seem to be doing away with this, but the issue is it just makes them more desirable than the old ones without any sort of update to the older ones. Second, the amount of points they give you each long rest is nowhere near enough to use them often enough, which is boring from a player perspective. An easy fix would make them function like ki, in that they are recovered after every short rest. However, that alone is way too powerful as the cost to using them as spell slots would likely need to be changed, as that is a fair amount of extra power if not (though this would make for a decent higher level ability, perhaps to replace the metamagic stuff that would get cut off in my above suggestion?). Another decent comprise would be perhaps to give sorcerers an "arcane recovery" type option, but make it recovering spell points (perhaps half your level, usually leave once per short rest?).
3) Wizards need to back the f*** off of metamagic. Like it or not, it's now the sorcerer's 'thing'. You have yours already, more spells known/prepared, more effective slots via arcane recovery, and ritual casting. This means no metamagic feats, and no wizard traditions with metamagic (looking at you UA Lore wizard with your Alchemical stuff!). If you wanted metamagic you should've rolled a sorcerer! >_<
Related note: if we are harking back to days of old, perhaps sorcerers should have some type of ability akin to the old Eschew Materials. Perhaps let them count themselves as an arcane focus for the purpose of spells?
Other related note: Seriously Wizards, back the f*** off! Why is every one of your new archetypes effectively stealing other class's thunder? I'm looking at you Thurge!
Bitbrain
Lost in Dark Sun
I've been saying ^this for quite a while now.
Well, it's Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Shore.
Simply by virtue of the name, there's going to be some favoritism.
MostlyHarmless42
Adventurer
Sorcerers of the Shore. By the gods! I now cannot help but imagine some horrible reality show involving overly shirtless and tan Pyro - sorcerers with bleach blonde (or actual fire) for hair. "Dude, it's a Sword coast thing. You wouldn't understand."
Bitbrain
Lost in Dark Sun
Sorcerers of the Shore. By the gods! I now cannot help but imagine some horrible reality show involving overly shirtless and tan Pyro - sorcerers with bleach blonde (or actual fire) for hair. "Dude, it's a Sword coast thing. You wouldn't understand."
I'm giving XP for that.
You've just given me an idea for my next Sorcerer PC.
CapnZapp
Legend
My patience doesn't really let me discuss minor details like this, when the bigger issues of sorcerers won't get solved by anything less than a redo of the class.
Sorcerers should have been designed around a "theme" that the player chooses for his character. Storm, Winter, Fire, Swamp, Blood or whatever. Then whenever you cast a spell from this "theme" you gain a couple of Sorcery Points, which you can use for a select few metamagic-on-the-fly effects and more spell slots otherwise.
This instantly allows the class to support every possible kind of Sorcerer.
And it instantly provides a good reason for sticking to your theme - you only gain Sorcery points when you cast themed spells.
For, say, Fire, Winter and Storm, the rules could provide a specific list of spells or designators that are considered to belong to that theme - and for say Swamp, the DM and player can agree to a list. But here's the secret: they don't have to. there's no play balance at stake here, since Fire is already kind-of best-in-class. The rules only really need to say "a theme can have up to 20 spells and the DM has final say" and be done with it.
The Draconic subclass can then stay, and I guess could specify lists of themes for the draconic elements as examples to guide new players.
---
Then metamagic (which is a intellectual concept entirely ill-suited to spontaneous casters) should have been made available to every full spellcaster.
For Wizards, you get the ability to "metamagick" your spells, but then you need to consider that Empowered Acid Blast or Silent Charm Person or whatever as its own unique spell, that counts against your limit of spells you can prepare for that day. Not as bad as requiring you to pick individual spell slots (vancian style), but not as free as sorcerers that apply their metamagic on the fly (to whatever spell they want at any given moment).
Sorcerers should have been designed around a "theme" that the player chooses for his character. Storm, Winter, Fire, Swamp, Blood or whatever. Then whenever you cast a spell from this "theme" you gain a couple of Sorcery Points, which you can use for a select few metamagic-on-the-fly effects and more spell slots otherwise.
This instantly allows the class to support every possible kind of Sorcerer.
And it instantly provides a good reason for sticking to your theme - you only gain Sorcery points when you cast themed spells.
For, say, Fire, Winter and Storm, the rules could provide a specific list of spells or designators that are considered to belong to that theme - and for say Swamp, the DM and player can agree to a list. But here's the secret: they don't have to. there's no play balance at stake here, since Fire is already kind-of best-in-class. The rules only really need to say "a theme can have up to 20 spells and the DM has final say" and be done with it.
The Draconic subclass can then stay, and I guess could specify lists of themes for the draconic elements as examples to guide new players.
---
Then metamagic (which is a intellectual concept entirely ill-suited to spontaneous casters) should have been made available to every full spellcaster.
For Wizards, you get the ability to "metamagick" your spells, but then you need to consider that Empowered Acid Blast or Silent Charm Person or whatever as its own unique spell, that counts against your limit of spells you can prepare for that day. Not as bad as requiring you to pick individual spell slots (vancian style), but not as free as sorcerers that apply their metamagic on the fly (to whatever spell they want at any given moment).
Erik Westmarch
First Post
For purposes of a rough comparison between the classes, they're pretty close in concept and effect. I was just using the term to describe a concept. There's no need to be a prick about it.
Erik Westmarch
First Post
The whole post was great, but I think this gets to the core of the issue with Sorcerers, which is that WotC doesn't have a clear concept of what "niche" the Sorcerer should be filling.
I know that 5E tries to get away from niche defense as a class design concept, but at some point the class has to have a reason to exist too.
I think it's a good design approach to say that Wizards know a lot of spells, but they know them rigidly and only according to the formula in their spellbooks. They can cast the spell only the way it is written. Sorcerers are the ones who only know a couple spells, but they know them so well they can improvise and modify on the fly.
Whoever it was that made the point above about a Sor/Pal converting spell slots into Smites all day long makes a good point. As a "fix" for Sorcerers, I'm leaning towards more spells known (via Origin spell lists) and more/cheaper Metamagic, while leaving the Sorcery Point economy basically the way it is.
Erik Westmarch
First Post
Thematically, I love this. I like the idea of a "Sea Wizard" or "Swamp Witch".
The downside is it's easy to become too limited in the types of damage you an do. If you're as storm wizard and all your spells do Lightning or Thunder damage, you're S.O.L. if you come across an enemy who's resistant to those and vulnerable to, e.g., Fire.
Or maybe you're okay with that as a design principle, but it's something to consider.
Maybe a Metamagic that lets you change damage types on the fly would fix that for you.
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