Players building v players exploring a campaign

steenan

Adventurer
There are many kinds of player input in creating the setting.

The most basic one is through backstories. Players create characters with background events, relations, values and goals. The GM makes sure that they are not only true in the fiction, but also important. That is, play centers on the characters as created by players, on the themes they flagged.
Honestly, I can't imagine running anything bigger than an experimental one-shot without this approach. PCs may not be most powerful or influential in the world, but the story we create together is about them; they are not external to it. The absence of this element is what turns me off from published modules.

The second kind of input is through the focus in play. Something is a small detail, but players get interested in it. They form ties with a background NPC; they dig into the history of found item; they try to affect the city's politics, irritated by decisions of its current rulers. If players are really interested in it (as opposed to grasping for straws because they can't find anything fun to do), the best move on the GMs part is to go with it, instead of telling the players "ignore it, it's not important". This also contains listening to players' ideas and interpretations and building on them, mostly in the "yes, but" kind of way (taking player's idea as true, but adding a twist).
This is also something I do very naturally, almost without thinking. One can't pre-prepare everything, so new facts must be added during play - and doing it based on player's interest and ideas ensures their engagement. I've never player with somebody who would object to this kind of approach.

Then, there is filling in the blanks. The GM does not prepare every detail, and if something is not important from their PoV, it may be turned over to players. "Is there an alchemist in this town?" "Marena, you said you've been here before. Is there an alchemist here?".
It's quite natural for me, but it's not something I do all the time. It's definitely not as necessary as the previous points. It reduces workload on the GM without removing any story potential (as this is specifically for things that are neither prepared nor follow from things established in play). On the other hand, I know that it can be jarring for strongly actor-stance players.

The final kind is a full-on collaborative world design. Before we start play, we share ideas, discuss them and incorporate ones that people find interesting. This does not mean that everything is known to the players from the beginning - if the game has a GM, they still introduce their ideas when running the game. Without it, it wouldn't really be fun (see: Czege Principle). But the main themes of play and the main areas of conflict are designed together.
This is not something I typically do, which does not mean I'm strongly opposed to that. In campaign play, both as a player and as a GM, I prefer more exploratory kind of play for which collaborative design does not work well. But for shorter games this works very well, dramatically reducing the amount of work the GM has to put in prep between session 0 and the start of play. Some games, like Urban Shadows, incorporate parts of collaborative setting design in character creation process, making no-prep one-shots possible.
 

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I've run successful games using collaborative world-building for over a decade.

Any problems individual posters have with the method are, therefore, a result of their own failings, not the method.
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
I've run successful games using collaborative world-building for over a decade.

Any problems individual posters have with the method are, therefore, a result of their own failings, not the method.

Poor reasoning there--a great surgeon might be able to remove an appendix with a razor blade, but that doesn't make it a good tool for the job.
 

Poor reasoning there--a great surgeon might be able to remove an appendix with a razor blade, but that doesn't make it a good tool for the job.

No.

Collective world building is not a tool for a job. It's an activity which creates something uniquely shared. It cannot be replicated by another method.

My reasoning is fine. Your analogy is flawed, a disingenuous apologia for ignorance.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Generally speaking, it depends on what you and your players want.

I know that one of my players really doesn't like collaborative world building. He likes to explore a rich, detailed and constistent world and to insert his characters into these worlds. And he's a really good AND roleplay-heavy player, not your typical "consumist".

As I love world-building myself, I tend to like to invest a bit more as a player. But I try to weave in my own ideas before the campaign starts. Once we've started, the world "belongs" to the DM. Of course, we may change things which we find problematic later on, but even I like to stay in character and react to my surroundings.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
Generally speaking, it depends on what you and your players want.
agreed

As I love world-building myself, I tend to like to invest a bit more as a player. But I try to weave in my own ideas before the campaign starts. Once we've started, the world "belongs" to the DM. Of course, we may change things which we find problematic later on, but even I like to stay in character and react to my surroundings.

I would disagree slightly here. IMO the gameworld only 100% belongs to the referee when it remains his or her private creation. As soon as it's shared with players the DM has limited control over the reactions and interpretations of the players about the world and they may not, and often do not match up with the DM's. If a worldbuilder wants to retain absolute and total control of a world they be better off not showing it to others unless they are open to comment and criticism (which ideally would be constructive criticism, but people being people this sometimes is not the case).

As soon as the gameworld is shared with players, even when the DM retains total editorial control, the reactions and interpretations of the players witnessing the world will inevitably have an effect on the portrayal of the world. If the players develop an immediate visceral dislike of a nation or organisation that the DM likes, for instance,(something I've seen in games before) it challenges the DM to be impartial and perhaps reassess his or her portrayal of that element of the setting. It can be tough when logical fallacies and unintended/unfortunate analogies are exposed by the players and surprise the creator.

Each game group has to evolve ways to handle such differences of interpretation, whether they are ignored by the DM or acknowledged. Depending on DM tastes and tolerances, sometimes it may be necessary to lay down the law, and declare objectively ex cathedra that the players are just plain wrong in certain interpretations. This can be the right thing to do for the DM's enjoyment of the game, but there is no guarantee such declarations will work fully or in part. The opinions of the players are still their own, and it can be very difficult to change them.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No.

Collective world building is not a tool for a job. It's an activity which creates something uniquely shared. It cannot be replicated by another method.

My reasoning is fine. Your analogy is flawed, a disingenuous apologia for ignorance.

I've read and enjoyed all of the Honor Harrington books. If you didn't like them, that's not a problem with the books, it's your own failings?

In other words, perhaps saying that people that don't like what you like have personal failings is neither true nor likely to convince anyone. Advocate for your playstyle, don't denigrate others who don't share it.
 

If you didn't like them, that's not a problem with the books, it's your own failings?

How about I don't bother to read any of them but still sit around on the internet offering my ever so worthwhile opinions on them being garbage without a clue what I'm talking about. That's a problem with the books is it?
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
As soon as the gameworld is shared with players, even when the DM retains total editorial control, the reactions and interpretations of the players witnessing the world will inevitably have an effect on the portrayal of the world. If the players develop an immediate visceral dislike of a nation or organisation that the DM likes, for instance,(something I've seen in games before) it challenges the DM to be impartial and perhaps reassess his or her portrayal of that element of the setting. It can be tough when logical fallacies and unintended/unfortunate analogies are exposed by the players and surprise the creator.

Each game group has to evolve ways to handle such differences of interpretation, whether they are ignored by the DM or acknowledged. Depending on DM tastes and tolerances, sometimes it may be necessary to lay down the law, and declare objectively ex cathedra that the players are just plain wrong in certain interpretations. This can be the right thing to do for the DM's enjoyment of the game, but there is no guarantee such declarations will work fully or in part. The opinions of the players are still their own, and it can be very difficult to change them.

Yep, that's roughly what I meant with my short post :)

Especially the parts the players made up are usually described by the GM, but if they really contradict the player's intention, he or she makes that clear and we change that. Or, like you said, if the GM insrets something in his world what the players really don't like then there's no point in keeping it. Unless it is a crucial part of your campaign and then you either have to skip it, change the campaign or admit that you screwed up as a GM.

What I meant with "my other player doesn't like player world building" is that he doesn't like being forced to describe or make up a scene ad hoc. Many modern games encourage players to create their reality during play and I totally understand if any player doesn't like that.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
How about I don't bother to read any of them but still sit around on the internet offering my ever so worthwhile opinions on them being garbage without a clue what I'm talking about. That's a problem with the books is it?
I wouldn't care, because that's 1) not talking about me so why should I, and b) because nothing they say reduces my enjoyment, and, finally, iii) if I felt compelled to respond, it would be saying that I like them for these reasons, not by failing the Wheton Rule and telling other people they're failing because they don't like my things.

In short, there are positive ways to make your point, neutral ways, and then your way.
 

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