Players building v players exploring a campaign

[Libramarian]

No.

Collective world building is not a tool for a job. It's an activity which creates something uniquely shared. It cannot be replicated by another method.

My reasoning is fine. Your analogy is flawed, a disingenuous apologia for ignorance.

Is it an activity, or a method? Tool and method seem semantically equivalent here. Is the collaborative world building an end in itself or a means to kickstart a "successful game"? To the extent that it's the latter, which you seemed to imply in your first post, the fact that you have used this method with success doesn't mean that others' inability to do so is the result of their own flaws rather than those of the method. Maybe you could have run even more successful campaigns in a traditional style.

This is not me being disingenuous---I do honestly wonder if the storygamer theoretical edifice has (at times, for some people) become too big to fail, in the sense that those really invested in it will do whatever it takes to run successful games in that style, when maybe if they spent as much time and effort refining their application of the traditional style their games would be just as good.

If collaborative world building is an experience to be enjoyed for its own sake, or a means to start off a type of successful game that cannot be achieved in the traditional style, it's certainly not valid to claim that those criticizing it are necessarily doing so out of incompetence or ignorance. They could just not like it. I have no interest in it. I think for me it's not that I lack the "cognitive flexibility" to step outside of "actor stance", but simply that the aesthetic choices being made are too inconsequential to be worth the effort of spreading around the effort--especially in a "pervy", conch-passing way. I have tried it--I've played with DMs who did the "I don't know what this NPC's name is...why don't you tell me?" thing which went over like a lead balloon. I also played Primetime Adventures once, and to this day that session ranks as the most tedious, unproductive time I've ever had playing an RPG(?).

 

[Lanefan]

Collective world building is not a tool for a job. It's an activity which creates something uniquely shared.

Call me crazy, but I would have thought collective world building is a tool (or tool kit, maybe) used for building a fictional world.

 

[chaochou]

This is not me being disingenuous---I do honestly wonder if the storygamer theoretical edifice has (at times, for some people) become too big to fail, in the sense that those really invested in it will do whatever it takes to run successful games in that style, when maybe if they spent as much time and effort refining their application of the traditional style their games would be just as good.

I have 35 years running mainstream games. Most people with an interest and experience in indy or niche rpgs also have a long history with traditional styles. People with only an interest in trad games generally have limited experience beyond them, almost by definition.

I've read several posters on these boards writing utter rubbish about 'story' games it turned out they'd not played, didn't understand and showed no evidence of having even read. Fake boilerplate complaints with no basis in their own actual play. There's more in this thread if you go and look. Do you suppose any misgivings I have about Traveller or D&D or Call of Cthulhu are based on never having played them?

As for the rest... theoretical edifice? No idea what you're talking about. Pervy? Old Forge slang, and niche even there. A word I've never used. Conch-passing? Never experienced it. Very few have. Stances I get, but I don't discuss gaming in those terms.

I've played with DMs who did the "I don't know what this NPC's name is...why don't you tell me?"

Just names? Names are colour, fluff, trivia. But vivid relationships, established by and for the players are central to some popular styles of play.

I don't know what this NPC's name is...why don't you tell me?
"We call him Igor the Crazy..."
So Igor is over the bar and coming at you with a snarl, his chainsaw revving. What promise to him did you break?

I also played Primetime Adventures once, and to this day that session ranks as the most tedious, unproductive time I've ever had playing an RPG

Not played PTA. But if I can like Runequest but not Gurps, why can't you like Inspectres where PTA fell flat?