D&D 5E Spending time [Encounter pacing and Resting restrictions]

Shiroiken said:

So a few quick questions about the Time Pool (captain Timepool! Nah... just Time Pool):

1) When does this actually empty? After rolled? After the Adventure? Never? That might be a big issue for players (it would be for me).

2) Do you punish the players with a die if the party MUST rest due to time of day? You only get 8 hours of adventuring/traveling before you have to make Con saves for Forced March, and it seem rude to punish the players for resting became the game punishes them if they don't. I mean, eventually they'd have to rest or collapse of exhaustion... when you'd hit them with another die in the Time Pool.

3) If the Time Pool is supposed to be public, won't that give away information? If the barbarian is investigating the innkeeper and you DON'T add a die, they know he's actually important to the adventure. If you DO add a die, the player can just stop immediately, since they know it's a red herring. Seems counter productive to me.

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It's well worth reading the original blog but my take is...

1) Every time the players "spend time" a dice goes into the pool, or all the dice in the pool get rolled (DM's choice). If the pool isn't full and a 1 is rolled, a dice gets removed. If the pool is full (has six dice in) AND a 1 is rolled, the pool is empited.

2) I would. The whole concept is to make the players feel pressured by taking time.

3) It doesn't matter whether the innkeeper is significant, or whether the door is trapped, or whether there really is a secret door or not. What matters is reminding the players that while they spend their time doing things, other things are happening in the world around them. The "complication"/"bad thing" might be immediately obvious, or it might not. The barbarian spends time investigating the innkeeper, the DM rolls, smiles and makes some notes. Later the big boss fight has a boss and a dozen minions, is that because the boss was gathering more minions while the barbarian was investigating or is it unrelated? If the players wonder whether the fight would have been easier if they were faster, the purpose of the time pool is achieved.

CapnZapp said:

Each time the characters take an action that spends time - searching for traps, examining some object, looting a fallen enemy, you the DM add a die to a pool of dice - the time pool. If the characters do something noisy, stupid or goose-chasey, add a small die (like a d4). If they're clever or efficient about it, add a larger die (like a d12).

You don't actually track time. We're talking "extra" time here. Time that stops up the regular adventure. Time "wasted". Don't add time dice for just venturing through the dungeon or fighting swamp monsters or getting the quest from the Innkeeper. Add time dice for stopping to check minute cracks in the ceiling, harvesting the body parts of swamp monsters or following the Innkeeper because the paranoid Barbarian thinks he's adding poison to their food. And most assuredly, add time dice for when the party takes a short or long rest "just in case".

Whenever you feel like it, you roll all the dice in the time pool. If any come up a "1" you have a complication. Traditionally, a wandering monster. But it could be a cave-in, or that the Lich King suddenly decides to order take-away.

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I had a similar idea a few years back:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?332360-Dread-Pool-(dice-idea)

I called it the "Dread Pool" drawing inspiration from the game of Dread more than tracking time. The idea was more one of tone: as the game progressed, the dice pool would grow increasing the tension until something bad happens. Building the feeling of inevitable disaster. Because the point isn't if something bad happens but when something bad will happen.


But I think the dice pool system is too random to discourage wasting time at the table.


Firstly, it requires more DM thought as you suddenly need to come up with penalty for a failure. This can be cool. The little external motivator for conflict or complications. It's a little less DM fiat for when problems occur.
Which is cool and can have some fun story problems. And makes the DM more reactive as they don't know when the complications are going to occur. But it's random and might not happen an appropriate times for the pacing of the session.
At best it's just a different way of rolling random encounters and encouraging random encounters to be something other than monsters.

It also penalises the players for being sidetracked. It discourages players veering off the story and doing their own thing. The small moments like shopping for a hat. Or burying a fallen NPC. Checking for traps in an un-trapped hallway. It adds a penalty to engaging with the world and the story.
And Odin help them if they follow a red herring or focus on the wrong part of the plot and wander off the rails.

It also relies on the dice to determine the penalty for wasting time. There's no direct cause and effect: the penalty for wasting time is random. (Generally when it's least dramatic or appropriate if my time as a DM has proven anything...)
If the players are lucky and the dice roll high, they can waste hours on needless tasks. (Or having that long rest). Or they can waste a little time returning to a shop and trigger a random monster.

So basically it's like a wandering monster roll every third turn with a 1 on a d6 being a wandering monster.

Is this really new? No, it isn't.

It seems like a good idea for some games. Generally speaking though I want to encourage the passing of time, and discourage running through the dungeon at speed, as used to happen in 3e/PF with its appallingly designed buff spell durations. I ran Pathfinder and had a Cleric player annoyed with me whenever I said "ok, after the battle you rest 10 minutes to catch your breath..." because in 3e/PF optimised play is running through several fights in sequence with your limited-duration buffs on, whereas I was running it old school style.

If PCs are dumb enough to sleep in the dungeon without major wardings they deserve what they get, but I'm fine with taking several days to explore a non-organised dungeon, or weeks/months+ for a megadungeon. It allows the campaign world to move on - seasons change, babies are born, wars begin and end...

guachi said:

So basically it's like a wandering monster roll every third turn with a 1 on a d6 being a wandering monster.

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The idea is that bad stuff can be things other than wandering monsters. Let's say what we are talking about is threat level. Threat level increases over time. What we are concerned about is recovery of resources interfering with attrition, so let's aim threat squarely at rests. Here's a quick first take at some mechanics.

Gaining Threat Dice
Threat dice are d6s. Add to the threat pool one die per short rest, or three dice per long rest.

Using Threat
The DM can roll threat dice any time by removing them from the pool. Each 1 rolled generates 1 threat point, which must be immediately spent on one of the following

· Add one hit dice to a foe’s HP
· Give one foe inspiration; each foe can gain inspiration only once this way
· Add foes to an encounter; points can be converted 1:1 into CR this way
· Force a player to reroll one attack roll, saving throw or ability check and take the new roll

Clearing Threat
Threat clears when players finish a dungeon, conclude an adventure, or reach a sanctuary.


As a player, I think I respond to this mechanic by balancing resource attrition against challenge escalation. That could lead to AP as players try to figure out whether regaining the Wizard's spells is going to be better than 3 more CR of foes. That is why it is better to use dice: so that the equation is not exact. Note that the DM can grab a couple of threat dice and roll them in the hope of imposing bad luck on a player, and then fail to generate the point they need for that. Hence the pressure to use the points immediately (to keep it fun). @CapnZapp @Jester David

Shiroiken said:

So a few quick questions about the Time Pool (captain Timepool! Nah... just Time Pool):

1) When does this actually empty? After rolled? After the Adventure? Never? That might be a big issue for players (it would be for me).

2) Do you punish the players with a die if the party MUST rest due to time of day? You only get 8 hours of adventuring/traveling before you have to make Con saves for Forced March, and it seem rude to punish the players for resting became the game punishes them if they don't. I mean, eventually they'd have to rest or collapse of exhaustion... when you'd hit them with another die in the Time Pool.

3) If the Time Pool is supposed to be public, won't that give away information? If the barbarian is investigating the innkeeper and you DON'T add a die, they know he's actually important to the adventure. If you DO add a die, the player can just stop immediately, since they know it's a red herring. Seems counter productive to me.

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Let me just chime in to say at this stage I'm not too concerned about the specifics. Just so you don't expect an answer from me. Carry on

robus said:

On adding dice while resting. Perhaps the way they go about establishing the resting situation could be a factor. Super safe rest situation? d12. Super dangerous (but very needed) rest situation? d4. Something in the middle? d8.

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Well... if this means just plopping down in the cave mouth gets you a d4 while casting Leomund's gets you a d12, then you're accomplishing the opposite of what's intended (just sayin' )

(I mean - just falling asleep where you stand is after all the kind of unsophisticated rest wandering monsters have been able to impact since Gygax created the game. It's the kinds of rest the monsters, the weather and the water supply can't impact the entire time pool is meant as a solution to.)

guachi said:

So basically it's like a wandering monster roll every third turn with a 1 on a d6 being a wandering monster.

Is this really new? No, it isn't.

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Thank you for providing me with the opportunity to straighten out this very central misconception of the idea!

Is this like a wandering monster? Absolutely not.

A wandering monster, if generated by the dice, is helpless to inconvenience the players if they rest back at the inn, or inside their Rope Trick etc.

Adding dice to a Time Pool, on the other hand, means the dice are still there when the players return to the dungeon or wherever. No matter what they do, they have passed the time.

Do you see the crucial difference? Classic "rest inhibitors" like wandering monsters or bad weather are easily circumvented by having a spellcaster or (Diablo-style scroll of Town Portal!) in the party.

Time dice, not so easily circumvented. I actually meant the bit about Time Stop quite literally

S'mon said:

It seems like a good idea for some games. Generally speaking though I want to encourage the passing of time, and discourage running through the dungeon at speed, as used to happen in 3e/PF with its appallingly designed buff spell durations. I ran Pathfinder and had a Cleric player annoyed with me whenever I said "ok, after the battle you rest 10 minutes to catch your breath..." because in 3e/PF optimised play is running through several fights in sequence with your limited-duration buffs on, whereas I was running it old school style.

If PCs are dumb enough to sleep in the dungeon without major wardings they deserve what they get, but I'm fine with taking several days to explore a non-organised dungeon, or weeks/months+ for a megadungeon. It allows the campaign world to move on - seasons change, babies are born, wars begin and end...

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At least let's agree this is a completely different discussion.

Just saying so nobody thinks this was a parameter in the original question complex.

TL;DR: Encouraging the passing of story time is great - encouraging the minmaxing of mechanical time not so great.

vonklaude said:

The idea is that bad stuff can be things other than wandering monsters. Let's say what we are talking about is threat level. Threat level increases over time. What we are concerned about is recovery of resources interfering with attrition, so let's aim threat squarely at rests.

Click to expand...

Thank you