D&D 5E Darksun 3.0

Irda Ranger

First Post
Would not barbarian, at least the subclasses with excessive damage resistance also overcome the typical DS natural obstacles a bit to easy like the Standard Monks?
Yes, in fact this a problem with running Dark Sun using 5E. The 5E classes (and even various builds within those classes) are only balanced against each other if you assume the SRD's Equipment List. Take away the metal weapons that cannot be easily replaced with bone or stone and the balance changes.

Dex-based fighters lose weapons. No short swords or rapiers. Strength-based Fighters and Barbarians lose two-handed sword, but you still have Maul, so that's okay, but the Fighters lose heavy armor options. Advantage: Barbarians. And of course the Monks are doing just fine.

You can just write back in Dark Sun equivalents, like instead of plate armor there's bug carapace armor, but then you lose one of the things that made Dark Sun feel really different.

I'm honestly not sure how to solve this little problem.
 

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Coroc

Hero
Yes, in fact this a problem with running Dark Sun using 5E. The 5E classes (and even various builds within those classes) are only balanced against each other if you assume the SRD's Equipment List. Take away the metal weapons that cannot be easily replaced with bone or stone and the balance changes.

Dex-based fighters lose weapons. No short swords or rapiers. Strength-based Fighters and Barbarians lose two-handed sword, but you still have Maul, so that's okay, but the Fighters lose heavy armor options. Advantage: Barbarians. And of course the Monks are doing just fine.

You can just write back in Dark Sun equivalents, like instead of plate armor there's bug carapace armor, but then you lose one of the things that made Dark Sun feel really different.

I'm honestly not sure how to solve this little problem.

I was thinking about bronce weapons and armor,
and despite the OPs concerns i am still convinced that my idea for normal damage for non steel weapons and 1d up damage for non Magic steel weapons is the easyest way to resolve this. Since no DS character should ever Show up in another part of the multiverse this should never be a problem, also it reflects that DS inhabitants are tougher ( I think i remember they wrote something like gravity is higher there also but i might be wrong)

DS also had loads of Special weapons like Lotulis Catchka Gythka and Caluhak. Otoh i would leave out typical renaissanceweapons like Rapiers.

To get around the armor problem and to get a 2nd ed feelplayers could start out at 3rd with max HP.

When i played DS back with 2nd ed there was one Thing i and the others really loved:

It was the (compared with vanilla ADD 2nd Settings) extremely fast paced combat, mostly deriving from really high attributes in Str and bad armorclass.

I did get some deja vu of this when i first played 5E
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Sounds like a nice doable approach to me.

A different thought is on barbarians by me:

Would not barbarian, at least the subclasses with excessive damage resistance also overcome the typical DS natural obstacles a bit to easy like the Standard Monks?

Note I removed the totem barbarian.
 

Coroc

Hero
Note I removed the totem barbarian.

Yup I noted that, still they get armored defense 10 + dexmod + conmod which can be quite high from the start using ASI only game and giving out bonus ASI and synergizes with hitpoints or counterarchetype dex barb build.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yup I noted that, still they get armored defense 10 + dexmod + conmod which can be quite high from the start using ASI only game and giving out bonus ASI and synergizes with hitpoints or counterarchetype dex barb build.

Things like that was why I expanded the athasian armor options. The other reason was because how light armor works vs how it did in 2E.

Well more like how medium and heavy armor worked.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Your -1 ac, but +1 to dex mod just means that most people put their extra ASI in dex and the game remains unchanged (and, ironically, metal armor is useless to them, because they don't get any benefit from wearing it over the athasian versions).

You can just write back in Dark Sun equivalents, like instead of plate armor there's bug carapace armor, but then you lose one of the things that made Dark Sun feel really different.

If that's what you want, then don't try to make replacements for the metal armors at all. If that pushes people towards barbarians and more agile characters, rather than strength based fighters, then that's not entirely a bad thing. It matches the feel of darksun pretty well.

The effect of that is somewhat countered by the inferior range of 1-handed dex based weapons available.

Are barbarians getting an advantage? No, not really. They're still going to lose AC unless you're playing with crazy high stats. Any barbarian with an ordinary starting array should have been wearing medium armor... only now all the worthwhile medium armor is gone. Barbarians who go dex over strength will be hurting their rages.

I think that removing all the metal armor options and then going through and adding specific athasian armors is probably the best way to go, making sure that the table has gaps where the best armors used to be. That will make people want metal armors, because they will be flat-out better than what's normally available.

The weapons table, you can probably get away with reducing die sizes on all metal weapons by 1. That hits dex users hardest because almost everything they might want just happens to be a metal weapon... but they're avoiding the loss of heavy armor, so it balances out somewhat.

That still won't make metal weapons desirable, since most characters will just use weapons that avoid the penalty. I think if you want metal weapons to be something people covet, you need to add something to them. Personally I would just make any metal weapon +1 or more, and handle the price as normal for magic items. Not that it matters: darksun is one place where the concept of buying and selling rare items really doesn't make sense.

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]
One other thing that I feel you missed: you really need to go through and rewrite all of the lifestyle rules and descriptions. At present roughing it in the desert with the survival skill is giving you a comfortable lifestyle! I also feel like the lower lifestyles probably need to be made much more nasty, and potentially the lowest lifestyle should mean that you're not always getting enough water to live on.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Your -1 ac, but +1 to dex mod just means that most people put their extra ASI in dex and the game remains unchanged (and, ironically, metal armor is useless to them, because they don't get any benefit from wearing it over the athasian versions).



If that's what you want, then don't try to make replacements for the metal armors at all. If that pushes people towards barbarians and more agile characters, rather than strength based fighters, then that's not entirely a bad thing. It matches the feel of darksun pretty well.

The effect of that is somewhat countered by the inferior range of 1-handed dex based weapons available.

Are barbarians getting an advantage? No, not really. They're still going to lose AC unless you're playing with crazy high stats. Any barbarian with an ordinary starting array should have been wearing medium armor... only now all the worthwhile medium armor is gone. Barbarians who go dex over strength will be hurting their rages.

I think that removing all the metal armor options and then going through and adding specific athasian armors is probably the best way to go, making sure that the table has gaps where the best armors used to be. That will make people want metal armors, because they will be flat-out better than what's normally available.

The weapons table, you can probably get away with reducing die sizes on all metal weapons by 1. That hits dex users hardest because almost everything they might want just happens to be a metal weapon... but they're avoiding the loss of heavy armor, so it balances out somewhat.

That still won't make metal weapons desirable, since most characters will just use weapons that avoid the penalty. I think if you want metal weapons to be something people covet, you need to add something to them. Personally I would just make any metal weapon +1 or more, and handle the price as normal for magic items. Not that it matters: darksun is one place where the concept of buying and selling rare items really doesn't make sense.

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]
One other thing that I feel you missed: you really need to go through and rewrite all of the lifestyle rules and descriptions. At present roughing it in the desert with the survival skill is giving you a comfortable lifestyle! I also feel like the lower lifestyles probably need to be made much more nasty, and potentially the lowest lifestyle should mean that you're not always getting enough water to live on.

I would not use the lifestyle options or make it applicable to the cities.

Good point on the armor, just go with the original on armor that is available? Basically anything over AC 14 you have to go and find?
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I would not use the lifestyle options or make it applicable to the cities.
I feel like the lifestyle concept is useful at it's core, it's just that the descriptions of the various levels don't match how darksun inhabitants live. And nor does the 'survival gives a comfortable lifestyle'. Mind you, I don't think that works for normal campaigns either.
Good point on the armor, just go with the original on armor that is available? Basically anything over AC 14 you have to go and find?

Yeah, I think that's fine. Like I said - str based characters are losing out on armor. Dex based characters lose out on weapons.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah, I think that's fine. Like I said - str based characters are losing out on armor. Dex based characters lose out on weapons.

So rapiers go bye bye maybe hand crossbows , remove all the metallic armors and maybe add some athasian medium armor into the game? Fighter can no longer dump stat dex if they want a low AC?

Longer term fixes

Rewrite some of the races (Athasian sub types).

Athasian subclasses for

Sorcerer
Warlock
Monk?
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
So other htings to fix based on feedback

Easy/Quick Fix

Overhaul weapons+ armor rules.
Overhaul resting rules (normal rules in city/safe locations, gritty in the desert)
Buff defiler rules

How do people feel about feats, leave them as optional perhaps with a banned list such as healer or just have no feats so spellcasters have a harder time concentrating for example if some of the normal weapons and armor go bye bye (rapiers, metaliic armor etc).
 
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