D&D 5E [SPOILERS] Enhancing Tomb of Annihilation

CapnZapp said:

Sorry for breaking it to you but ALL adventures assume the heroes act like it's "first level", in that they venture forth (all five of them) alone, to seek out danger and glory in equal measure.

I'm not flippant. I am genuinely sorry. Maybe you need to consider how bounded accuracy in 5E has made numbers much more important (whereas level was paramount in 3e and 4e).

In short, it boils down to this:

"Yes, we could have brought an army, but we choose not to, because we want to experience the danger and glory ourselves."

In the final analysis, yes you could play "smart", but that's not the genre D&D is emulating. Indiana Jones didn't bring any allies. Why? Because it would have made a less exciting movie.

That really is the crux of the issue.

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It's all down to my team playing combat as war style. They don't want to face the ultimate force of destruction in an even ground. They want to make sure the odda are on their side.

Also, what about spells that completely destroy Tomb concept? What about a giant monkey with axepick forcing its way through the stone? What about gaseous form and polymorphing into tiny creature? Or misty step at lvl one?

I can't ask my players who were cunning all the time to turn braindead mode on while entering the Tomb of Nine Gods.

wizardlvl80 said:

It's all down to my team playing combat as war style. They don't want to face the ultimate force of destruction in an even ground. They want to make sure the odda are on their side.

Also, what about spells that completely destroy Tomb concept? What about a giant monkey with axepick forcing its way through the stone? What about gaseous form and polymorphing into tiny creature? Or misty step at lvl one?

I can't ask my players who were cunning all the time to turn braindead mode on while entering the Tomb of Nine Gods.

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I get the feeling the only solution is to suggest you play something else. Avoid WotC's written campaigns at the very least - you are not the audience.

[MENTION=6933326]wizardlvl80[/MENTION] When it comes to numerous allies – Artus Cimber, Order of Gauntlet, some grungs, aarakocra, etc. – consider the motives of those NPCs more carefully. It's not just the yuan-ti & Red Wizards who can betray you in this adventure...

Artus Cimber should frequently be making checks to resist the evil influence of the sentient Ring of Winter (see sentient magic item rules in DMG). Basically any time him (CG) and ring (CE) conflict, there's a 50% chance the ring possesses Artus. He *is* a powerful ally, but only *when* he's acting as an ally. Chris Perkins even portrayed a possessed Artus Cimber in recent streaming play!

The Order of the Gauntlet, as I read them in ToA, are brave foreigners - many clerics and paladins - come to combat the undead scourge, but have found themselves woefully underprepared for Chult’s culture & jungles, as well as the sheer intensity and size of the undead attacks. Gradually, their ideals are being worn down as death, disease, and madness take their toll. If they learn that the Death Curse will result in the end of all liches (well, except Acererak), some misguided members might be swayed into fighting so the Death Curse continues on its course. Niles Breakbone is their woefully inept commander of Camp Vengeance, and even if (for example) the PCs overthrew or circumvented him, it's likely their Order of the Gauntlet allies will hold PCs (and other PC allies) to the same strict Lawful Good standards of conduct. That's bound to lead to friction with most PCs, with Artus, and certainly any grung allies.

Grungs are obviously tentative allies, as they habitually take human slaves & poison them long-term to make them complacent. Maybe other grungs, besides mad King Groak have plans for Nangnang? Maybe one has the Death Curse and secretly been offered the cure by Acererack if they sabotage PCs?

Aarakocra are indeed superb allies to have...aboveground. The tomb will chew up their 13 hp fast and hard.

EDIT: I also agree that ToA isn't meant to be "run out of the box." This isn't an adventure for new DMs nor for casual DMs. It's actually a toolkit to create your own adventure with a fair deal of the "heavy lifting" of design already done for you. They really could have stated that somewhere. I recognized it because I followed several blogs discussing the adventure & perused it at my FLGS before picking it up. But others may not have realized what they were in for.

Hello again.

Like I said - it's not such a big deal for me with the allies. Just pointing how problematic it can be. If my players decide to go there with allies - I will let them and I won't try to come up with a solution to apply more misery to them. After all this game is about their victory or loss, not mine NPC's.

But let me ask again - what about creative usage of spells? Yesterday, my player infiltrated Fane of the Night Serpent as a invisible gaseous form (invisibility was casted by a team sorcerer) and he was able to enter their armory, break the spell, grab something and in an action turn into a small ant (polymorph spell) and run away like a boss. I'm talking this kind of creative style of play.

When they will enter Tomb of the Nine Gods, they break it in every single possible way. That's ok for us, cause we have tons of fun. But I'm really disappointed with this module. It's based on stupid assupmtions.

wizardlvl80 said:

I'm kind of babyraging now cause I bought a ready to play product that is so problematic. Any thoughts comrades? I really don't even want to fix something that should be adressed by design team. At this moment I think I will let my players do what their imagination will tell them to do.

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Don't play Acererak as if he has 11 Intelligence. Also, it does sound like you guys have gotten tons of mileage out of the book, so are you really that disappointed? It can't be worse than the other adventures Wizards has released.

wizardlvl80 said:

Hello again.

Like I said - it's not such a big deal for me with the allies. Just pointing how problematic it can be. If my players decide to go there with allies - I will let them and I won't try to come up with a solution to apply more misery to them. After all this game is about their victory or loss, not mine NPC's.

But let me ask again - what about creative usage of spells? Yesterday, my player infiltrated Fane of the Night Serpent as a invisible gaseous form (invisibility was casted by a team sorcerer) and he was able to enter their armory, break the spell, grab something and in an action turn into a small ant (polymorph spell) and run away like a boss. I'm talking this kind of creative style of play.

When they will enter Tomb of the Nine Gods, they break it in every single possible way. That's ok for us, cause we have tons of fun. But I'm really disappointed with this module. It's based on stupid assupmtions.

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Sounds like you want to eat the cake and have it too.

If you want constructive feedback you need to accept the premises.

As an alternative, creatively taking it apart could be good fun, but there's no fun in your tone - if you just want to rant and vent, I'll leave you to it.

CapnZapp said:

Sounds like you want to eat the cake and have it too.

If you want constructive feedback you need to accept the premises.

As an alternative, creatively taking it apart could be good fun, but there's no fun in your tone - if you just want to rant and vent, I'll leave you to it.

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Your constructive feedback is that player characters should act like idiots on 1st lvl and go into Tomb of Nine Gods alone cause that's how it should be. On the other side, I should play Acererak as a badass villian to apply more misery to players.

How it is that Acererak has the right to act smart and consider every option and players have to accept all of it and wait for what is coming to them? Also, you are aware that playing a CR 20+ creature with full potential means death of every (and I mean it) party? These are creatures with god-level powers and they can destroy PCs on demand.

Yes, I would like to get some constructive feedback on what to do with these badly designed assumptions? Everything I got from you so far is "you don't know Acererak" or "don't ask questions and accept it".

But to be fair, I will be much more specific.

Please answer:

1. If players have line of sight (which they have) they can enter/exit level 1 Rotten Halls with Misty Step.
2. Players can polymorph themselves and enter/exit Rotten Halls.
3. Players can polymorph themselves to creatures with enormous strenght and literally use axepick to force through stone.
4. Players can use gaseous form to enter/exit Rotten Halls on demand.
5. Create Zombie/Skeleton gives PCs giant advantage on traps discovery/overcoming. How you would deal with a wizard with small army of zombies?

Thanks in advance.

wizardlvl80 said:

Your constructive feedback is that player characters should act like idiots on 1st lvl and go into Tomb of Nine Gods alone cause that's how it should be. On the other side, I should play Acererak as a badass villian to apply more misery to players.

How it is that Acererak has the right to act smart and consider every option and players have to accept all of it and wait for what is coming to them? Also, you are aware that playing a CR 20+ creature with full potential means death of every (and I mean it) party? These are creatures with god-level powers and they can destroy PCs on demand.

Yes, I would like to get some constructive feedback on what to do with these badly designed assumptions? Everything I got from you so far is "you don't know Acererak" or "don't ask questions and accept it".

But to be fair, I will be much more specific.

Please answer:

1. If players have line of sight (which they have) they can enter/exit level 1 Rotten Halls with Misty Step.
2. Players can polymorph themselves and enter/exit Rotten Halls.
3. Players can polymorph themselves to creatures with enormous strenght and literally use axepick to force through stone.
4. Players can use gaseous form to enter/exit Rotten Halls on demand.
5. Create Zombie/Skeleton gives PCs giant advantage on traps discovery/overcoming. How you would deal with a wizard with small army of zombies?

Thanks in advance.

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No.

If you came here to pick a fight, you'll have to find someone else.

As I said, the module is not for you. In fact, I suggest you stay away from published modules entirely.

CapnZapp said:

No.

If you came here to pick a fight, you'll have to find someone else.

As I said, the module is not for you. In fact, I suggest you stay away from published modules entirely.

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No, I did not and I apologize if anything I wrote you took as me trying to fight you.

Yes, I'm angry. But I'm angry at this adventure and D&D 5e at all after playing it - I do not want to offend anyone here. So please accept my apologies.

That spoken, I really would like to hear how you guys would deal with such things as I stated above.

Thanks.

wizardlvl80 said:

But to be fair, I will be much more specific.

Please answer:

1. If players have line of sight (which they have) they can enter/exit level 1 Rotten Halls with Misty Step.
2. Players can polymorph themselves and enter/exit Rotten Halls.
3. Players can polymorph themselves to creatures with enormous strenght and literally use axepick to force through stone.
4. Players can use gaseous form to enter/exit Rotten Halls on demand.
5. Create Zombie/Skeleton gives PCs giant advantage on traps discovery/overcoming. How you would deal with a wizard with small army of zombies?

Thanks in advance.

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1 & 2 & 4. Cover the outer boundaries of the Tomb with an undispellable illusion that there are no cracks.

Once the party has entered once, gathering puzzle cubes is no longer fun, and circumventing them becomes a relief, not a bug.

3. Unlike previous editions, rock can't be trivially mined through (in d20, it was just a matter of inflicting enough hp damage per cubic square). Have the Yuan-Ti investigate if they set up a day-long mining operation. If this warning doesn't deter them, have them launch a coordinated assault together with gargoyles and every Tomb guardian that can reach the entrance with the intent to TPK them for being too slow.

If the combined mass of enemies aren't enough to win the day, the party is over-levelled.

For each significant ally they bring, you're free to add the corresponding reinforcement to the bad guys. Ideally making the good and bad NPCs square off against each other so you don't have to run that fight in detail (just roll a d6 to see who wins).

5 & General: If the party feels trivializing traps by endless summons, I'd let them. They clearly want something else out of their D&D gaming. (A dungeon that consists mostly of death-traps might not be up their ally, however.)

The point is that D&D is a game that assumes the heroes want the heroics for themselves. Applying realistic tactics and risk-mitigation strategies only work to lessen what makes D&D fun.

The players need to be aware of the fact they're expected to WANT to walk in the footsteps of Indiana Jones. Not merely dealing with his challenges, but actually solving them his way - taking reckless risks, gasping with delight, narrowly averting certain defeat.

It's neither your nor the module's job to anticipate and counter every little thing players may come up with, if made in bad faith.

In the end, if they don't want what D&D offers, no in-game solution will work.

Maybe your group is even burnt out on role-playing? In which case I suggest you switch things up for variety, and to get your appetite back. Try a dungeon crawler board game for a change. I've heard great things about Gloomhaven.