D&D 5E What else to I need to consider for a 5e realism hard mode?

Warmaster Horus · Sep 19, 2017

Maxing out monster HP makes for tough battles.

Dausuul · Sep 19, 2017

snickersnax said:
Thanks for helping me clarify. So I'm trying to fix (in no particular order) BBEG viability, Wile E Coyote falling damage, character hit point bloat, rocket tag, and video game style natural healing along with a few other odds and ends.

Got it. That's a nice, clear list. Let's break it down and look at the causes of each:

BBEG viability: I have found that my BBEGs suffer when a) they can't soak the party's combined damage output, or b) they get locked down by stun attacks and the like.
Wile E Coyote falling damage: Results from PCs having too many hit points at higher levels.
Character hit point bloat: Obviously, PCs having too many hit points at higher levels.
Rocket tag: Results from "save-or-lose" effects and ultra-powerful damage spells.
Video-game style natural healing: Results from the very generous resting rules.

Looking at all this, it occurs to me that much of it could be solved with the E6 solution. If you're not familiar with E6, it was an idea someone came up with for 3E, where you simply cap the PCs at 6th level. Once they hit 6th, they no longer gain levels; instead, every so many experience points, they get an extra feat. (Some additional feats were added to fill in gaps, like adding new spells known.)

The idea is to stop the PCs' "vertical" advancement (getting better at what they currently do) and focus them on "horizontal" advancement (learning to do new things).

E6 should port pretty well into 5E. Everything works normally up to 6th level. At 6th level, you stop gaining levels; but every 10K or 15K experience points, you get an ASI, which you can convert to a feat as normal. This will stop the party's damage output from scaling to infinity, limit their hit points, and limit their access to save-or-lose effects.

You'll probably also want to use the optional rules in the DMG for "gritty" rests, where a short rest is 6 hours of sleep and a long rest is a week of downtime. That should tackle the natural healing issue.

snickersnax said:
<odds and ends> for example: having a system that would support a story like Steinbeck's The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights wherein a valiant knight hears about a terrible giant wreaking havoc on the country-side. After gathering information about the giant, he decides on a strategy to defeat the giant in combat. The knight sharpens his sword and removes his armor and relies on his dexterity to avoid getting hit. His strategy is a successful one he avoids the giant's initial attack and delivers a critical wound to the giant. (I would guess the "giant" in this story may be best represented in D&D by an ogre)

Hmm. That's a trickier thing, since it requires a fundamental change to how D&D models defenses. How important is this specific example? If you really want to do this one thing, the least disruptive way would be to have certain monsters be "slow"--the monster has a high attack bonus, but it's reduced by the enemy's Dex modifier after armor.

For example, say the giant has attack bonus +10, and its enemy is a fighter with Dex 18. In full plate, the fighter has AC 18 and no Dex mod after armor, so the giant hits on 8 or better. If the fighter swaps the full plate for studded leather, the fighter's AC goes down to 16, but the giant gets -4 to hit, requiring a 10 or better. You could even make the penalty be double the Dex modifier, to make the difference really dramatic.

TwoSix · Sep 19, 2017

Honestly, I'd go with a modified E6 mode, rather than trying to kneecap some progression but leave other aspects untouched.

1) Leveling stops at 4. Then you don't have hit point inflation, high level spells, and attack or cantrip scaling to worry about.
2) You can drop hex, hunter's mark, smiting if you want, but they'll be less useful with one attack and only 1st level spells (for a paladin).
3) Short rest is 6 hours, long rest is 72 hours.
4) I don't see the need to nerf Str hit or Dex damage, but do whatever you need to do. Are all weapons +Dex to hit, + Str to damage? That's not quite as bad.
5) Keep the ASI at +2, or at least 2 +1s. It is their capstone, after all.

6) After 4, keep acquiring XP, and give the players the ability to spend XP on raising a stat by 1, upgrading their proficiency bonus (expensive!), learning new skills, and maybe acquiring from a select list of feats. You might turn some of the more interesting higher level class abilities into purchasable "feats" as well. I would look at the E6 documentation from the 3.5 days for inspiration.
7) Give out magic items/boons to taste to allow them to reach a power level you're comfortable with. Maybe in your example, the knight goes on a quest to find a magic sword that can hurt giants, and spends XP to learn a fighting style that allows him to dodge the blows of huge creatures when not wearing armor.

Edit:

Dausuul said:
Looking at all this, it occurs to me that much of it could be solved with the E6 solution. If you're not familiar with E6, it was an idea someone came up with for 3E, where you simply cap the PCs at 6th level. Once they hit 6th, they no longer gain levels; instead, every so many experience points, they get an extra feat. (Some additional feats were added to fill in gaps, like adding new spells known.)

The idea is to stop the PCs' "vertical" advancement (getting better at what they currently do) and focus them on "horizontal" advancement (learning to do new things).

E6 should port pretty well into 5E. Everything works normally up to 6th level. At 6th level, you stop gaining levels; but every 10K or 15K experience points, you get an ASI, which you can convert to a feat as normal. This will stop the party's damage output from scaling to infinity, limit their hit points, and limit their access to save-or-lose effects.

Heh, great minds and all that.

Caliban · Sep 19, 2017

Every PC starts with a random physical ailment. (Bad teeth, poor eyesight, gout, lame leg, back injury, STD, etc.)

Every PC must make a con save every week or come down with a random disease.

After every combat in which a PC loses half or more of their HP, they have to check to see if they've received a long term wound or permanent physical injury (losing a finger, ear, or eye, major scarring, etc.)

Every year, PC's must roll a con save or be stricken with a life threatening or life changing ailment (cancer, heart failure, kidney failure, cataracts, losing a point from a random physical stat, etc).

TwoSix · Sep 19, 2017

Caliban said:
Every PC starts with a random physical ailment. (Bad teeth, poor eyesight, gout, lame leg, back injury, STD, etc.)

Every PC must make a con save every week or come down with a random disease.

After every combat in which a PC loses half or more of their HP, they have to check to see if they've received a long term wound or permanent physical injury (losing a finger, ear, or eye, major scarring, etc.)

Every year, PC's must roll a con save or be stricken with a life threatening or life changing ailment (cancer, heart failure, kidney failure, cataracts, losing a point from a random physical stat, etc).

Stop coddling your PCs. In my day, we made system shock checks whenever we got up in the morning.

cmad1977 · Sep 19, 2017

Most important thing to make a 'hard' mode is to remember that NPCs aren't stat blocks

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jayoungr · Sep 19, 2017

There is the optional rule for lingering injuries in the DMG (p. 272).

snickersnax · Sep 19, 2017

manduck said:
If you're looking for more of a story/novel style game and less of a "game" in feel, you don't need all these rules changes. Honestly, looking over your rules tweaks it seems that you're just making high level play impossible. With all these rules, you're limiting the threats a PC can handle and taking their ability to handle things beyond a certain CR right off the table.

I feel like I need to do something. Right now high level seems impossibly easy. I could do and have done what others recommend: double monster hit points, add extra henchmen for the BBEG, add extra encounters to deplete party resources, add urgency to adventures so the party feels compelled to continue even when they know they are over-extending. But it would be nice if this were unnecessary.

manduck said:
If you want your D&D campaign to feel more like a novel and less like a game, the last thing you want to do is add or tweak rules. Just focus more on story and social interaction with combat only happening where it makes sense. If you want to add a gritty feel, use the options rules for resting that makes recovery a lot longer.

I've never used the RAW HD system for hit point recovery, there are so many opportunities for healing by class features that party rarely has any problems with this. I can't imagine playing RAW for hit point recovery.

manduck said:
If you really want more of a mechanical impact, start doing things like tracking resources and encumbrance. If your quiver only holds 20 arrows, you can't just sit back and shoot forever. Make them pay for or find those expensive spell components.

Already do all that

manduck said:
The trick here is that you have to be really descriptive in your sessions. Whatever you emphasize in a game is what the players will deem important. If story is the focus, they'll gravitate towards that. If combat is the focus, they'll gravitate towards the rules. Give them lots to investigate, discuss, maneuver around (socially and politically) and that will deliver your novel experience. Do it all the time, even in combat. Really describe that marshy swamp they get ambushed in, then add in mechanics like difficult terrain for the muddy ground. Things like that.

I already do a fair bit of this, but I'm sure that I could improve this area. Thanks for this advice

manduck said:
As someone who has both killed plenty of players and had plenty of characters die, the game can be plenty dangerous without all these rules adjustments.

It also depends on your players. If you have a group that just bumbles along like they are going out for a picnic, they die easy. I you have a group that only fights when they know they can win, when they gather information and double check sources, when they spend more time discovering weaknesses and countering strengths in their opponents than they do fighting, when they plan for contingencies if they fail as individuals and as a group. When they calculate risks like actuaries. Then I think the game needs some harder rules.

Sure I could and do surprise them with unknown or unknowable situations, but they are careful and professional. Its hard to threaten much less kill characters like that without making situations that seem ridiculous.

snickersnax · Sep 19, 2017

Dausuul said:
Looking at all this, it occurs to me that much of it could be solved with the E6 solution. If you're not familiar with E6, it was an idea someone came up with for 3E, where you simply cap the PCs at 6th level. Once they hit 6th, they no longer gain levels; instead, every so many experience points, they get an extra feat. (Some additional feats were added to fill in gaps, like adding new spells known.)

The idea is to stop the PCs' "vertical" advancement (getting better at what they currently do) and focus them on "horizontal" advancement (learning to do new things).

E6 should port pretty well into 5E. Everything works normally up to 6th level. At 6th level, you stop gaining levels; but every 10K or 15K experience points, you get an ASI, which you can convert to a feat as normal. This will stop the party's damage output from scaling to infinity, limit their hit points, and limit their access to save-or-lose effects.

You'll probably also want to use the optional rules in the DMG for "gritty" rests, where a short rest is 6 hours of sleep and a long rest is a week of downtime. That should tackle the natural healing issue.

Hmm. That's a trickier thing, since it requires a fundamental change to how D&D models defenses. How important is this specific example? If you really want to do this one thing, the least disruptive way would be to have certain monsters be "slow"--the monster has a high attack bonus, but it's reduced by the enemy's Dex modifier after armor.

For example, say the giant has attack bonus +10, and its enemy is a fighter with Dex 18. In full plate, the fighter has AC 18 and no Dex mod after armor, so the giant hits on 8 or better. If the fighter swaps the full plate for studded leather, the fighter's AC goes down to 16, but the giant gets -4 to hit, requiring a 10 or better. You could even make the penalty be double the Dex modifier, to make the difference really dramatic.