D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

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Guest 6801328

Guest
But, again, my point isn't that the fighter is bad. It's not. It's that it's just so incredibly bland and boring and brings virtually nothing to the table that couldn't be brought by any other class.

...and, despite all that, apparently lots of people like it.

And for those who don't like it, there are lots of other classes to choose from.

So what's the debate about, again? Just that it isn't how some people would have designed the fighter, if they had JC's or MM's job?
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
But, again, my point isn't that the fighter is bad. It's not. It's that it's just so incredibly bland and boring and brings virtually nothing to the table that couldn't be brought by any other class.

It's OK that you find a particular flavor of ice cream boring. Nobody will make you choose that flavor when you can choose the flavors you prefer. But, you cannot declare that everyone else doesn't like that flavor.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
So, what you're saying is that fighters are 'most likely' bad at stealth so can't contribute in scouting and similar aspects of exploration requiring good DEX?

No. That’s what you’ve inferred from what I’ve said. I think STR edges out DEX for Fighters overall. I’ve seen DEX Fighters, and it’s a viable build, but I’d say STR is probably a bitbetter choice all around.

Fighters can go STR or DEX in 5e - so can rangers (rogues, barbarians, and paladins, for instance, not s'much) - it's a bit of versatility the 5e fighter finally got without undue strings (feat taxes) attached. It's nice. But, it's at-chargen versatility, and it goes one way or the other for any given fighter.

Is there any other class that has a choice of primary stat? Isn’t that a point in favor of the Fighter when it comes to something they have that other classes don’t?

Also, why can’t a Fighter be good at both? Sure, one will be better, but those extra ASIs are available. DEX is never a bad stat to improve, even for a STR Fighter.

And when those choices can be made, and whether they exclude other choices. At chargen, if you're gong to use weapons, you generally make a STR or DEX choice. If you went with DEX you're probably not going to play a paladin or barbarian. If you go with STR, it's probably not a rogue nor an archer of any kind. So, sure, the STR fighter is probably going to be stronger than the rogue and the DEX fighter stealthier than the Paladin or even lighter-armored Barbarian.

I think most folks would have likely chosen their class before assigning their stats. But I think a big part of that decision may depend on the other players’ choices for class.

The supposition, 'well, a fighter can sneak better than the paladin/barb because he's more likely to have high DEX (since the other classes are more deeply committed to STR),' is just as true as a fighter likely being stronger than the rogue or ranger... but no fighter is both those things. And, the DEX fighter is unlikely to be as stealthy as the rogue (a prime thing for the rogue to use Expertise in), nor the STR fighter stronger than the raging barbarian.

Well, if we’re talking about Exploration and Social Interaction, the Barbarian should likely not be raging since that relies on being in combat. So a Fighter need not be stronger than a raging barbarian.

But again, we’re back to the Fighter needing to be BEST at something like Stealth in order to contribute. As if the Rogue will always sneak off alone without ever bringing anyone with him. A DEX Fighter with a Criminal background is a solid partner for a Rogue.

We’re back to “the Fighter’s not the best” but there are actually few party needs where there’s one class that’s clearly best, where another class can’t achieve the same high level of skill.

Ah, that makes more sense.

I said raft rather than boat because I figured they'd be the kind of thing to get improvised in the exploration pillar, when there's more time for finding such solutions than when, say, swimming a moat in the midst of battle.

I’m just thinking of when these kinds of Athletics checks tend to come up outside of combat.


And also wearing heavy armor...
Nod. That gets into what we're comparing, IMHO, it should be comparing two characters trying to be good at the same thing: Do we want the DEX fighter, the ranger or the rogue as our party scout? Do we want the STR fighter or the Barbarian kicking in doors & carrying stuff for us?

Well I personally don’t think it’s terrible to have two party members that are both good at something. I’m all for trying to get as many needs covered as possible, but having some overlap isn’t unwanted.

But this also depends on what other classes are in the party. If you have a 4 or 5 member party, then there’s a good chance the Fighter can shore up a shortcoming of the party with the right Feat or ASI choices.

The impression I get is that you're on the point about the fighter contributing somewhere that everyone else happens to have neglected. In the party with STR in the 8-12 range, the STR fighter is /the/ lift'n & break'n stuff guy. In the party with DEX in the 10-14 range, the DEX fighter is the stealthy one. In the party with otherwise universally dumped CHA, the Noble Fighter with 14 CHA is the face.

Yes, that’s a big part of what I’m saying. The Fighter simply has more opportunity to diversify with Feats/ASIs than other classes.

Yes, the one-eyed fighter in the land of the blind is king. So is the two-eyed anything else.

Meh, I don’t tend to think of a party that doesn’t have every class represented...or more realistically, that doesn’t have every need addressed....as the “land of the blind”.
 

Hussar

Legend
...and, despite all that, apparently lots of people like it.

And for those who don't like it, there are lots of other classes to choose from.

So what's the debate about, again? Just that it isn't how some people would have designed the fighter, if they had JC's or MM's job?

It's OK that you find a particular flavor of ice cream boring. Nobody will make you choose that flavor when you can choose the flavors you prefer. But, you cannot declare that everyone else doesn't like that flavor.

Oh, hey, I totally get that. And I agree. This is largely my own bugaboo. Well, that and watching [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] try to contort himself into a pretzel making claims is far too much fun as well. :D Far, far more hostility than is needed. :p

But, yeah, like I said before, obviously I was mistaken that fighters were just the "dip" class. I've got no problems admitting that I'm wrong. And, just as obviously, the issues I'm having with fighter are more my own issues than anything about the fighter class itself. Others quite clearly aren't having the same problems that I am.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but, in case I didn't, it's quite clearly a preference thing. I would like to see fighters either be clearly better at fighting (and not just "better at fighting if I optimize a single type of fighter to the exclusion of anything else") OR have some goodies outside of combat.

Then again, I think the latter could probably be better done with some subclasses. Instead of getting battle master combat abilities, you get some sort of leadership abilities that you can add onto other characters. Things like the Mastermind Rogue or some sort of dice pool that you can add on to skill checks. Something like that anyway.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I think I mentioned this earlier, but, in case I didn't, it's quite clearly a preference thing. I would like to see fighters either be clearly better at fighting (and not just "better at fighting if I optimize a single type of fighter to the exclusion of anything else") OR have some goodies outside of combat.

I think making Fighters even better at fighting would be problematic because there seems to already be a common perception that they are. My suspicion is that it comes from tables where not everybody is good at or even cares about optimization, but there's this one Fighter with a polearm that makes everybody else feel useless. (So maybe a Fighter buff would be more acceptable if it were to go hand-in-hand with a XBE and GWM/PM nerf.)

However, as somebody who thinks Fighters are fine as they are, I would also be totally fine with some non-combat abilities or ribbons, if that would make the elite players happier. I suspect it would make even the non-elite players who already like their Fighters happier, too, even if they don't feel they need it.

So the conversation I would find more interesting, rather than this back-and-forth, is "what might those abilities look like"? Would they be core or based on sub-class?
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
According to the class domain UA they would be based on subclass. I think it calls out the 7th level subclass ability as where the fighter gets a boost in the social or exploration pillars.
 

Satyrn

First Post
According to the class domain UA they would be based on subclass. I think it calls out the 7th level subclass ability as where the fighter gets a boost in the social or exploration pillars.

Indeed. That's where the champion and battlemaster get theirs (although that battlemaster feature fills a very narrow niche in the Social Pillar).

But I think there's room in the champion to pop in something at 3rd. The battlemaster's superiority dice are too strong I think, though a couple new maneuvers could get added.
 

Alexemplar

First Post
According to the class domain UA they would be based on subclass. I think it calls out the 7th level subclass ability as where the fighter gets a boost in the social or exploration pillars.

That feels very late to me. You're 1/3 to level 20, and most campaigns don't even make it that far. Seems a while to wait until you can really start busting out into marginal secondary roles in any class.
 

Eubani

Legend
I know the devs do not like making more manouvers as it probably gets in the way of churning out more spells but the answer for the battlemaster could be to create manouvers that boost 2 skills for a period. eg Recon: +SD for 10min on stealth and perception checks. Parlay: +SD to Persuasion and Insight checks for 10min. etc. This would help in both exploration and social without new rules. I would personally errata Remarkable Athlete to effect all Str, Con and Dex checks.
 

SmokingSkull

First Post
In terms of out of combat abilities for Fighters I look to the Monster Hunter (Gothic Heroes UA) for inspiration for they have a unique function they can do with their SD. They can add a SD to any (Wisdom) Insight check to determine if someone is lying to them or add a SD to any (Wisdom) Perception check made to discern hidden creatures and objects. I know it only adds to the success and doesn't give new functionality but it's a step in the right direction, so I say add more things like this to Fighter subclasses that use SD. For those that don't however I say make a new ribbon to attach to the subclass, either level 3 or in addition to what they get at 7. As for what that might be I'd have to think about it for a day, I'll post here once I come up with something.
 

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