Lycanthropy for PCs

candidus_cogitens · Jul 31, 2003

I'm considering introducing lycanthropy into my campaign. It would be helpful to hear your thoughts about how to make it work well.

One of the things that intrigues me is good lycanthropes. It would seem to have a lot of benefits for a PC. So, how exactly would it work in terms of the character's progression through levels. If you become a werebear, for instance, does your character level immediately jump three levels? That sounds like too much of a gift, but I guess the downside would be that the character is going to progress much more slowly in whatever class they were working on. Is this a correct understanding?

Another issue concerns player knowledge vs. character knowledge. If a PC gets bitten by a rat and doesnt know that he has contracted lycanthropy, the player is obviously going to find out as soon as the DM starts taking over control of the character when he transforms into a wererat for the first time. Wouldn't other members of the party be very likely to figure it out as well, since they would often be near the PC when the transformation occurred? I suppose if you could arrange for the characters to be separated at night--sleeping in different rooms in the inn, perhaps--then it might make a very interesting plot. The characters would be hearing about chaos going on at night and not know that it was one of their own! On the other hand, the players most likely would know, and that might detract from the fun.

A final question: if a PC with lycanthropy is underground when the moon comes out, does he still transform? What if the moon is out during the day?

candidus_cogitens · Aug 2, 2003

No thoughts at all?

Umbran · Aug 2, 2003

Well, first tidbit - the full moon is never out during the day, by definition. In order to be full, the moon and sun must be on opposite sides of the planet, so full moonrise must happen at sunset.

I'd say that the trigger is the time of month, rather than actual contact with moonlight. If the character could save himself by being underground, he could just stay in a closed room on the night of the full moon. That's just cheesy.

I personally, don't really like the idea of having lycanthropy be a benefit, something that characters woudl want to have. At best, I'd play it as something far more trouble than it is worth.

You are right about the character knowledge vs player knowledge thing, in that it can be a pain. But remember that the characters only know what you tell them. If you play it correctly, they won't know what's going on, unless/until the afflicted PC transforms in combat or something. Consider that otherwise, the transformations only happen once a month, so they don't get a lot of information about what's going on.

jmucchiello · Aug 2, 2003

candidus_cogitens said:
One of the things that intrigues me is good lycanthropes. It would seem to have a lot of benefits for a PC. So, how exactly would it work in terms of the character's progression through levels. If you become a werebear, for instance, does your character level immediately jump three levels?

In Character Customization, I suggest two methods for dealing with lycanthrope. Thrusting the template onto an afflicted lycanthrope has a cost of 2,000 xp + 500 xp / HD of the animal form. The character must pay off this xp debt before they can advance any more. Now, I realize that at low levels this is equivalent to several levels and at high levels it doesn't even cost a level. But look at the CR of werewolf. Does being able to become a wolf really help a 15th level character so much that he should be 2 levels behind the rest of the party? I don't think so.

Natural lycanthropes are handled differently and are left for those with the book.

seankreynolds · Aug 2, 2003

{I'm considering introducing lycanthropy into my campaign. It would be helpful to hear your thoughts about how to make it work well.}
{One of the things that intrigues me is good lycanthropes. It would seem to have a lot of benefits for a PC. So, how exactly would it work in terms of the character's progression through levels. If you become a werebear, for instance, does your character level immediately jump three levels? That sounds like too much of a gift, but I guess the downside would be that the character is going to progress much more slowly in whatever class they were working on. Is this a correct understanding?}

Two things:

One, the level adjustment listed for the lycanthropes in the 3.5 MM does NOT include the LA from the animal HD you get for becoming a lycanthrope of that type. So a wereboar has a total LA of 9 (+3 for the templae, +6 for the 6 bear HD). I asked WotC directly about this and they told me this was so.

Two, what I would do is rather than giving them an instant boost in LA and abilities, have them progress in "levels" of the template over time. Just like Savage Species made monster classes, you can do the same thing for templates classes, creating "template monster classes." In fact, I wrote a series of articles for the WotC site breaking down the MM 3.5 templates into template classes; the first one (vampire template class) should go live next week. This allows the character to progress at the same rate as his fellows, without suddenly increasing in power by a big chunk and suffering at immediate LA.

{Another issue concerns player knowledge vs. character knowledge. If a PC gets bitten by a rat and doesnt know that he has contracted lycanthropy, the player is obviously going to find out as soon as the DM starts taking over control of the character when he transforms into a wererat for the first time. Wouldn't other members of the party be very likely to figure it out as well, since they would often be near the PC when the transformation occurred?}

Yep. It's called roleplaying.

{A final question: if a PC with lycanthropy is underground when the moon comes out, does he still transform? What if the moon is out during the day?}

I always ran it that the change occurred only if the moon was up _and_ the sun was down, and it worked even underground.

Ankh-Morpork Guard · Aug 2, 2003

Re: Re: Lycanthropy for PCs

seankreynolds said:
Two, what I would do is rather than giving them an instant boost in LA and abilities, have them progress in "levels" of the template over time. Just like Savage Species made monster classes, you can do the same thing for templates classes, creating "template monster classes." In fact, I wrote a series of articles for the WotC site breaking down the MM 3.5 templates into template classes; the first one (vampire template class) should go live next week. This allows the character to progress at the same rate as his fellows, without suddenly increasing in power by a big chunk and suffering at immediate LA.

This was the best thing I've read all morning...mainly because I was about to get around to doing the monster classes for the templates later today. Thank you, Sean, you've just saved me a lot of work.

candidus_cogitens · Aug 2, 2003

Personally, I don't see the problem with just having the character jump immediately several levels higher. That is in fact the kind of extraordinary boost in power that lycanthropy is supposed to represent.

Keep in mind, though, that there are still some major disadvantages to this affliction. You as a player have suddenly found yourself playing a very different character than you imagined you would be playing at that level. You will now progress much more slowly, since you will be getting meager XP compared to the rest of the party. Let's say you want to be a spellcaster. You're now going to be a much weaker spellcaster than you otherwise might have been. On the other hand, these advantages obviously would not be as great for the fighter/barbarian/paladin or even the ranger and rogue.

Advantages and disadvantages aside, unless you're playing with a bunch of munchkins who go nuts with such things, what's wrong with suddenly acquiring power?

seankreynolds · Aug 3, 2003

{Advantages and disadvantages aside, unless you're playing with a bunch of munchkins who go nuts with such things, what's wrong with suddenly acquiring power?}

Because at the minimum you're talking at least +4 LA (+3 for the template, +1 for the weakest lycanthrope -- the wererat -- having 1 animal HD).

So your group of 4 ECL 6 PCs is suddenly 3 ECL 6 characters and 1 ECL 10 character. Encounters that challenge the ECL 6 characters are a cakewalk for the ECL 10 character. Encounters that are a challenge for the ECL 10 character are murder on the ECL 6 characters. If you compromise (say, EL 8), the ECL 6 guys have a tought time and the ECL 10 guy still has an easy time. Woohoo, fun and fair.

_That_ is why sudden boosts in ECL are bad.

BobROE · Aug 3, 2003

SO any suggestions on how break up into a level system (I realize you're probably going to do an article on it, but any general hints would be nice)

candidus_cogitens · Aug 3, 2003

seankreynolds said:
{Advantages and disadvantages aside, unless you're playing with a bunch of munchkins who go nuts with such things, what's wrong with suddenly acquiring power?}

Because at the minimum you're talking at least +4 LA (+3 for the template, +1 for the weakest lycanthrope -- the wererat -- having 1 animal HD).

So your group of 4 ECL 6 PCs is suddenly 3 ECL 6 characters and 1 ECL 10 character. Encounters that challenge the ECL 6 characters are a cakewalk for the ECL 10 character. Encounters that are a challenge for the ECL 10 character are murder on the ECL 6 characters. If you compromise (say, EL 8), the ECL 6 guys have a tought time and the ECL 10 guy still has an easy time. Woohoo, fun and fair.

_That_ is why sudden boosts in ECL are bad.

Yes, I realize that it you would no longer have a party of equals. But this would bring its own unique challenges. Part of the challenge for the now more powerful lycanthrope PC would be to protect his somewhat weaker partners. And their challenge would be to stay alive while supporting the lycanthrope. Provided that the DM is cognizant of these factors, it could be fun and fair.

Furthermore, the discrepancy would only be temporary, as the gap between the weaker and stronger members of the party would quickly close.

I honestly feel rather skeptical about the idea of a levelling system for lycanthropes. The whole idea is that you become afflicted with something that brings about a SUDDEN transformation, with immediate advantages and immediate disadvantages.