Lycanthropy for PCs
seankreynolds
Adventurer
{Just a note: according to my copy of the [3.5] SRD, it would 'just' be a minumum of +3: +2 for lycanthrope(afflicted), +1 for wererat.}
Well, that can't be right, because the MM lists LA +3 for every single type of lycanthrope, regardless of base animal HD. And I asked Ed Stark, Rich Baker, and Andy Collins and they told me that the animal HD count separately toward LA.
{+3 (exl. HD) is for natural lycanthropy, but since the topic was sudden boosts in power, I think we can leave those out.}
So you're saying the SRD says that +3 is for natural lycanthropes and +2 for infected lycanthropes?
Well, that can't be right, because the MM lists LA +3 for every single type of lycanthrope, regardless of base animal HD. And I asked Ed Stark, Rich Baker, and Andy Collins and they told me that the animal HD count separately toward LA.
{+3 (exl. HD) is for natural lycanthropy, but since the topic was sudden boosts in power, I think we can leave those out.}
So you're saying the SRD says that +3 is for natural lycanthropes and +2 for infected lycanthropes?
Maybe you misunderstood me: I didn't mean the LA is different for other lycanthrope types, but the racial HD are, and thus so is the ECL.seankreynolds said:
I don't know what de MM says, because I don't have it. All I know is what's in the SRD.
Yep. +2 LA for infected, +3 LA for natural.
This is a cut&paste from my copy of the 3.5 SRD under 'Lycanthropes as characters':
So, to summarize the SRD:
Afflicted lycanthropes have an ECL of +2 +[Animal HD]
Natural lycanthropes have an ECL of +3 +[Animal HD]
Jolly Giant
First Post
Galor said:
Makes sense to me; natural lychantropes have complete controll of their 'curse' unless it's full moon. Afflicted ones turn into slobbering, mindlessly raging beasts whenever they take damage, unless they make a will save...
seankreynolds
Adventurer
Hmmm, looks like lag ate my reply. Short summary:
1) I found the reference in the printed MM to the varying ECLs.
2) I suppose it's because the natural lycanthrope has complete control, can transmit lycanthropy, and DR 10/silver (instead of 5/silver).
That means I need to tweak my articles just a little bit, but no biggie.
1) I found the reference in the printed MM to the varying ECLs.
2) I suppose it's because the natural lycanthrope has complete control, can transmit lycanthropy, and DR 10/silver (instead of 5/silver).
That means I need to tweak my articles just a little bit, but no biggie.
candidus_cogitens
Explorer
I'm reviving this old thread, rather than start a new one because someone has probably already started a new one. If so, please direct me to that thread. I'd like to read it.
Anyway, I was looking over the new stuff in Dragon magazine. It seems to make it much more possible to use lycanthropy for PCs. That is, as a DM, I could attack them with lycanthropes and be prepared for the consequences of some of them becoming afflicted.
Here's what I'm wondering: What if I remove the whole business about alignment. Instead of having the character's alignment subject to change, which is perhaps THE major drawback of lycanthropy, what if the afflicted PC feels a almost irresistible burning hunger for fresh meat when the moon is full. His alignment may remain good during that time, but he has to kill and eat someone or something or else he will become cripplingly ill. His constitution will receive d4 damage every night that he does not do it. This hunger would last for three nights--so the PC could potentially receive 3d4 points of CON damage.
It occurs to me that the afflicted one could just drag along a supply of pigs to eat during "that time of the month." So, what if I required the meat to be human?
The reason I want to do this is I want to have the possibility of a PC remaining playable, but I want the impact on the game to be significant.
Anyway, I was looking over the new stuff in Dragon magazine. It seems to make it much more possible to use lycanthropy for PCs. That is, as a DM, I could attack them with lycanthropes and be prepared for the consequences of some of them becoming afflicted.
Here's what I'm wondering: What if I remove the whole business about alignment. Instead of having the character's alignment subject to change, which is perhaps THE major drawback of lycanthropy, what if the afflicted PC feels a almost irresistible burning hunger for fresh meat when the moon is full. His alignment may remain good during that time, but he has to kill and eat someone or something or else he will become cripplingly ill. His constitution will receive d4 damage every night that he does not do it. This hunger would last for three nights--so the PC could potentially receive 3d4 points of CON damage.
It occurs to me that the afflicted one could just drag along a supply of pigs to eat during "that time of the month." So, what if I required the meat to be human?
The reason I want to do this is I want to have the possibility of a PC remaining playable, but I want the impact on the game to be significant.
Cthulhudrew
First Post
The OD&D supplement "Night Howlers" used a rule similar to what you propose. Upon turning into a lycanthrope, the PC had to make a Wisdom check (at no penalty if changing voluntarily, all the way up to a -4 penalty if changing involuntarily on the night of the full moon) in order to maintain their "normal" disposition. If they failed, they took on the alignment of their lycanthrope type. In D&D what this could translate into is a Will saving throw with possible penalties in order to maintain the character's alignment in were-form.
candidus_cogitens
Explorer
Cthulhudrew said:
As a DM, I want to avoid any possibility of having to dictate an alignment to a player. I just find it problematic because then the player is torn between what he wants the character to be and what I am telling him to be, and the guidelines are not clear enough. Does he have to become evil to the point of sacrificing everything that he has been trying to accomplish.
I want it to be grim, but not problematic from a roleplaying standpoint.
BSF
Explorer
I actually ran a game with one of the characters as a natural werebear. The character treated it as a Sacred Gift. Wonderful backstory on it and everything. I'm a sucker for a good backstory. 
Anyway, it was a bit problematic to balance out every encounter and to keep things completely in control. Good RP on the player's end helped keep the whole thing manageable. I would have loved to have had the leveled template that Sean put together when the campaign started. I think we would have had even more fun and it would have made the character even more unique because a lot of the balance concerns wouldn't have been as prevalent.
As far as afflicted lycanthropy goes, I haven't ever had it be an issue. Admittedly, I tend to shy away from lycanthropes because of the RP concerns if there is an afflicted character. Though, in this last campaign, I started feeling more comfortable with that possibility. However, the PC's always made their saves to avoid contracting the curse. So, I can't offer much helpful advice on that aspect. Still, that doesn't prevent me from throwing my hat into the ring.
Your Con damage idea is a good attempt, but what is to keep the character from just using Restoration to bring it back up each day? That kind of negates the impact I think. Even if they don't do that, you still have to face the fact that may take as little as 3 Con and a max of 12 Con. A major nuisance to be sure, but after the moon cycle, they just need to rest with good health care a few days. Maybe this is enough of an impact, but it seems like you are looking for a bit more.
Of course, you could make it a little more simple. They change to beast form and cannot change back at all until they satisfy their urge. Make it completely involuntary. Then, they need to make sure they aren't wearing heavy armor when the moon rises. Otherwise, it will probably be ruined and may cause some damage. If you remove the hybrid forms and just retain the beast form, they won't be able to effectively use weapons. Magic items will be problematic. Even a simple potion is hard to drink if you don't have thumbs. There will also be problems with communication with the rest of the party.
Now, there will be some people that enjoy the beast form and don't mind staying like that. So, after 3 days in beast form, maybe they start losing 1 point from Cha, Wis or Int. This will drag them further toward becoming a beast. And since this is a curse, restoration doesn't have any affect? (Of course, you could use that with the Con damage too.) When their Will saves start going down and they start losing skills, that might get their attention.
Anyway, it was a bit problematic to balance out every encounter and to keep things completely in control. Good RP on the player's end helped keep the whole thing manageable. I would have loved to have had the leveled template that Sean put together when the campaign started. I think we would have had even more fun and it would have made the character even more unique because a lot of the balance concerns wouldn't have been as prevalent. As far as afflicted lycanthropy goes, I haven't ever had it be an issue. Admittedly, I tend to shy away from lycanthropes because of the RP concerns if there is an afflicted character. Though, in this last campaign, I started feeling more comfortable with that possibility. However, the PC's always made their saves to avoid contracting the curse. So, I can't offer much helpful advice on that aspect. Still, that doesn't prevent me from throwing my hat into the ring.
Your Con damage idea is a good attempt, but what is to keep the character from just using Restoration to bring it back up each day? That kind of negates the impact I think. Even if they don't do that, you still have to face the fact that may take as little as 3 Con and a max of 12 Con. A major nuisance to be sure, but after the moon cycle, they just need to rest with good health care a few days. Maybe this is enough of an impact, but it seems like you are looking for a bit more.
Of course, you could make it a little more simple. They change to beast form and cannot change back at all until they satisfy their urge. Make it completely involuntary. Then, they need to make sure they aren't wearing heavy armor when the moon rises. Otherwise, it will probably be ruined and may cause some damage. If you remove the hybrid forms and just retain the beast form, they won't be able to effectively use weapons. Magic items will be problematic. Even a simple potion is hard to drink if you don't have thumbs. There will also be problems with communication with the rest of the party.
Now, there will be some people that enjoy the beast form and don't mind staying like that. So, after 3 days in beast form, maybe they start losing 1 point from Cha, Wis or Int. This will drag them further toward becoming a beast. And since this is a curse, restoration doesn't have any affect? (Of course, you could use that with the Con damage too.) When their Will saves start going down and they start losing skills, that might get their attention.
Nareau
Explorer
I'd start here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a
and here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a
The werewolf myth centers around a frightening loss of control. It focuses on the beast within all people, and how terrible that beast can be once it is free from our social and mental constraints. It is Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, Bruce Banner and the Hulk. Sometimes it is about the terror of a cunning beast; sometimes it's about the horror of a violent madman.
All that said, gaming is (for me) largely about control. I love to take control of a totally different person and explore who they are, how they act, and what they think in fantastic situations. If that control is taken away from me, I don't have much fun.
So you might want to consider what you want to accomplish by introducing werecreatures into your game. Do you want to bestow an unusual power-boost to one of the characters? Do you want to do it purely as a plot-device? Do you want to explore any of the aforementioned themes? Or do you want to re-write the standard werewolf myth into something new and interesting? You may even consider talking it over with the target player, and see if it's something they're ok dealing with.
Further, you may want to think about changing the rules of lycanthropy in your game. At higher levels, curing it can be a very simple thing. And experienced players might have a hard time firewalling bewtween character and player knowledge.
I've been playing a LG cleric who was infected by a wererat, and while there are some interesting things going on with it, it has often been a frustrating and demoralizing struggle.
Spider
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a
and here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a
The werewolf myth centers around a frightening loss of control. It focuses on the beast within all people, and how terrible that beast can be once it is free from our social and mental constraints. It is Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde, Bruce Banner and the Hulk. Sometimes it is about the terror of a cunning beast; sometimes it's about the horror of a violent madman.
All that said, gaming is (for me) largely about control. I love to take control of a totally different person and explore who they are, how they act, and what they think in fantastic situations. If that control is taken away from me, I don't have much fun.
So you might want to consider what you want to accomplish by introducing werecreatures into your game. Do you want to bestow an unusual power-boost to one of the characters? Do you want to do it purely as a plot-device? Do you want to explore any of the aforementioned themes? Or do you want to re-write the standard werewolf myth into something new and interesting? You may even consider talking it over with the target player, and see if it's something they're ok dealing with.
Further, you may want to think about changing the rules of lycanthropy in your game. At higher levels, curing it can be a very simple thing. And experienced players might have a hard time firewalling bewtween character and player knowledge.
I've been playing a LG cleric who was infected by a wererat, and while there are some interesting things going on with it, it has often been a frustrating and demoralizing struggle.
Spider
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