Just becaue it's October - Witches?

Celebrim

Legend
- which is why the biblical texts have prescriptions against witchcraft (and punishment descriptions) ?

You realize that the texts in question were written 1000's of years before the early modern witch scare and as a result referred to a wholly different sort of witchcraft than existed in the imagination of the 1600's, right?

For example, this is the freaking code of Hammurabi: "If a man has put a spell upon another man and it is not yet justified, he upon whom the spell is laid shall go to the holy river; into the holy river shall he plunge. If the holy river overcome him and he is drowned, the man who put the spell upon him shall take possession of his house. If the holy river declares him innocent and he remains unharmed the man who laid the spell shall be put to death. He that plunged into the river shall take possession of the house of him who laid the spell upon him."

And secondly, the statements I'm making referencing historical documentation which you would have access to if you read any sort of scholarly treatment of the witch panic. It is absolutely without doubt that the Medieval Christian Church did not believe either witches or witchcraft existed, and explicitly in its doctrine and its proclamations had forbid anyone for being executed as a witch. You can read St. Augustine to verify that, and such things as the Council of Paderborn, the Council of Frankfurt, the manuals of the Inquisition, and the directives of various popes. For example in 1258, Pope Alexander IV absolutely forbid the church from investigating any charges of witchcraft. All though this period, they had access to the Biblical texts, so why do you see a big change in practice from the practice of the medieval church and the big witch scares of the 16th and 17th century? And even during the height of the witch scare, the Catholic Church was by far the most skeptical institution regarding the notion of witchcraft in Europe. For example, when Malleus Maleficarum was first published, the Church banned it as heresy.

Sounds to me like someone is white washing the affair and trying to make innocent the relatively direct source of the superstition -- religion -- and the persecution of any thing that smelled of a religion which was not their own.

Who is trying to white wash anything? I just explained that 10's of thousands of people where killed because of a superstition and panic over a practice that the historical record suggests did not in fact exist. In other words, at the time the panic began there were no witches to persecute. Looking for witches, they invented them as a sort of fever dream.

I have the facts. I'd guess you have a grudge.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
The whole notion of a "wizard" is in my opinion a D&Dism scarcely to be found in real world tradition, and barely found in fantasy literature prior to D&D. All real historical wizards are in fact clerics, or more specifically shamans.
OK, in a sense. In the past - not even that long past - there was really no separating religious belief from practical knowledge - 'science' today, I guess we might say 'superstition' in the past. Today, we have a very strong secular movement (not as strong as a lot of us seem to think, but more significant, by far than it has ever been before).

It's not unusual to tease out the history of science from the religion of it's day. Many historical figures now regarded as early scientists were Monks or priests or mystics or at least devout laity, and regarded their research as a religious pursuit, respectful of God and His creation.

The same's true of the archetypes of the modern concept of a 'wizard,' which, obviously, predates D&D. It teases out a secular vision of magic for it's own sake from the theurgy (ironically 'Theurgist' was a wizard level title back in the day) and mysticism actually practiced by the people who inspired the wizard idea - everyone from the mythical Hermes Trimagest to Paracelsus to Crowley. Paracelsus, for instance, can be teased out as a scientist (physician, who debunked some fake cures), as invoking supernatural beings (he inscribed talismans that invoked 'angels' to perform healing), or as occultist (he was a firm believer in astrology and a famous alchemist).

So saying that wizards are really animists is like saying scientists are really monks. There was just a time when the line wasn't drawn so clearly. Today, the secular is more prominent, so teasing out religion seems like a natural thing to do. Tease out the religion from Hermeticism, you get wizards. :shrug:

This can be verified by any cursory examination of the occult. Real world magical traditions do not postulate the irrational idea that people can by the force of their will or the depth of their study force reality to conform to their wishes.
They do, a bit. The idea of will, intent, and the like is certainly there in many such traditions. Little bits taken out of context imply that sort of thing. "As I will so mote it be!" ;)
That notion is laughable to anyone with any experience of reality.
It's called 'magical thinking,' it's fairly intuitive, children often fall into it, for instance. You wish someone hurt, they get hurt, you think you did it.

Instead, all magical traditions postulate that a well studied person can by secret rites and knowledge make bargains with or force supernatural beings to conform to certain laws that govern their behavior, with the result of having these supernatural beings or forces work the will of the magician.
Ah... a lot of them, yes. Some of that, at least, is the result of the Christian spin on such beliefs, blaming it all on the Devil, and such.

It's another D&Dism that you aren't a priest, that is a cleric, if regardless of what sort of polytheistic tradition you belong to, you don't have the trappings and veritable monotheistic viewpoint of a Catholic priesthood
Catholicism is more than a little mystical, and includes plenty of practices that could be classified as Theurgy. So, not as off-base as all that. ;)


It's for this reason that I suggested that you could hardly do better than Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook, and that their Shaman's Handbook actually captured the reality of historical 'witchcraft' better than their Witch's Handbook with its nods to modern Wiccan beliefs about 'witches'.
OH, that's what all the above was about.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think you misunderstood me...

No, I think I do understand you, I just object to the way you are expressing the idea. You don't want to actually keep science and history out of your fantasy - which is probably impossible. You just don't want your imagination to be constrained by science or history.

I understand, but I suspect that is a groundless fear. Science and fantasy don't constrain fantasy or the imagination, they in fact inspire it and enlarge its scope.

First, fantasy (and, on a broader term, speculative fiction) tends to be much more about popular imagination than really History itself. There are numerous historical mistakes in the popular conception, along with many concepts impossible to work in real-world Physics. People still like it because it’s cool.

I agree with that, and did agree with that, when I noted that things like Druids were in fact based on nothing more than imagination that became mistakes in the popular conception, and in turn inspired many other secondary creations. But the person that knows both the popular conception and the historical truth has grander scope of their imagination and more understanding of the possibilities than someone who knows the popular misconceptions alone.

However, when someone starts to brag about how ninja and samurai were so different in medieval Japan, how a given weapon is impossible to exist in real-life, how many things were different in their original conception, it’s time to stop and think.

Indeed, it is time to stop and think, which is exactly my point. And among that stopping and thinking is considering how the inevitably richer and more complex reality might inform the limited imagination of popular conception with its trite simplicities, mistakes, and absurdities. The truth is that no one's imagination is so unlimited as to create a work as complex, detailed, sophisticated, coherent, and imaginative as the collected imaginations of everyone else who has ever lived. You'll never have the time to exceed the creative endeavors of all the architects, painters, jewelers, and story tellers nor conceive of anything as grand as the actual real tapestry of history. So to banish that from your mental efforts is not to increase them, but to diminish them. You need all of that history and stuff to flesh out and inform your work, and without it your work will be small and tawdry.

Historical/scientific accuracy are good only as they improve our work, by being just cool and (in games) by gameplay. The exact moment they start being “Stop Having Fun, Guys!” is the moment we threw them in the trash can.

This is a strawman argument. No one is suggesting that you don't have fun.

Third: Gameplay. We already have a Shaman class. If people want a Witch class, then surely people want something at least a little different from the already-existing Shaman.

We don't even need to appeal to history to suggest the danger of that. We need only appeal to gameplay. An endless variety of classes don't improve gameplay. For example they create problems of balance and place a greater rules burden on the table by creating endless supplements filled with classes that only diverge from other classes in minor details. "There is more than one way to do something" is not necessarily to the benefit of a system. Further, a multiplicity of classes makes Chargen more challenging while not necessarily increasing creativity. Indeed, at some point, more classes reduces creativity rather than enhances it. A good example would be the handling of Prestige Classes in 3.X where most of the Prestige classes were rife with play problems that varied from poor balancing to severe front ending to being simply a fixed list of powers that had to be taken in a fixed progression to actually specifying the characters personality, background, and type to the point that every member of the prestige class was fundamentally the same character.

When I suggest that the Shaman is a better choice than the Witch, it is precisely with the intention of increasing fun rather than decreasing it. Green Ronin's shaman is a master piece of configurable design that allows you to create all sorts of different sorts of characters with very different flavors. It lets the player call out their own powers and restrictions to suit the sort of character they imagine, and it is almost infinitely extensible by leveraging common game elements (such as clerical domains). With a bit of configuration I used it to replace the Druid class entirely, not because I thought the Druid anti-historical or because I wanted to put a kibosh on the popular imagination, but because the Druid as implemented in the RAW was bad for gameplay - a poorly balanced jack of all trades, master of all, that could overshine whole parties of lower tier class characters.

Rule of Cool.

My problem with the 'Rule of Cool' is that it rarely advocates for things that are either fun or cool. Besides the fact that what is 'cool' is purely subjective, so that I could equally argue from the 'Rule of Cool' for strict historical accuracy if I was a mind too (and I'm not), but the 'Rule of Cool' tends to actually be in practice 'this is what should happen because this is what I imagined should happen'. It's predictable and trite, and I doubt I'd have a lot of fun as a player if 'the rule of cool' was some guiding principle. You can't boil down story, plot, challenge, and so forth to 'it's cool' except in the most tautological of manners.

If electronic RPGs depicted the full hygiene of the Middle Ages, for example, people would literally vomit before the screen.

Contrary to popular myth, the people of the Middle Ages were very clean and bathed regularly. The Age of Dirt and the abhorrence of bathing followed after the Black Death that ended what we now call the Medieval culture, and among other things closed the public baths common people depended on for hygiene. It was the Early Moderns in the 15th and 16th centuries that were foully stinky and dirty, though I suspect the tolerance for that sort of thing in depictions is higher than you think.

And I’m pretty much done with this. There isn’t much more to be said. If this line of thought won’t convince you, someone like me also won’t.

Don't let your imagination be constrained to only what happened in history. Don't deprive your imagination by starving it of the very fodder it needs to create things that are truly original, unique, and "Cool".
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I feel like much of what you write is based off a slight misunderstandings of what I wrote, possibly because as lengthy as my post was, I still rushed through very many topics and didn't clarify what I was talking about. This is leading you to jump tangentially to the point again and again, in ways that would take many posts and perhaps some forked threads to cover. Rather than going there, I'll try to stay focused on the main point.

The same's true of the archetypes of the modern concept of a 'wizard,' which, obviously, predates D&D.

But not by much, and D&D certainly did much to promote the conception. The modern conception of the wizard didn't predate D&D by very many decades. Even as late as Crowley, he fits within my magician as priest definition, and for that matter quite readily fits the idea of a 'witch'.

Tease out the religion from Hermeticism, you get wizards.

Agreed, and that is the point. Tear the religion out of the occult tracts Gygax pursued in investigating magic to create D&D, and you end up with wizards. The less of the occult that remains in it, the more recognizably modern the class actually is. The most extreme cases would be the treatment of traditional magical powers - what we'd know call psychic powers - as targets of legitimate scientific investigation. From that we get D&D's psionic powers, but the slightly less extreme cases of magic reimagined according to the terms of science are exactly the D&D wizard, whether those terms come from fantasy designed to be palatable to a modern largely Christian audience or whether they come from actual magic practitioners wanting to lend legitimacy to their own beliefs.

But if you leave in the traditional practice, the divide between Arcane and Divide that dominates how D&D views magic doesn't really exist.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
- which is why the biblical texts have prescriptions against witchcraft (and punishment descriptions) ?

Sounds to me like someone is white washing the affair and trying to make innocent the relatively direct source of the superstition -- religion -- and the persecution of any thing that smelled of a religion which was not their own.

Read a bit beyond the English translations, which were heavily influenced by King James.

James had a serious fear of witchcraft, and so the translator who worked on the King James Bible (first sanctioned English translation) played to the tastes of his royal sponsor.

The original was several languages earlier in the translation chain. Remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, though Jesus probably spoke Aramaic primarily, as that was the language of the land at that time. From there it was translated to Greek, as that was the language of scholars, the international language of the learned man. From there it was translated to Latin, and from there to the various modern languages we see it published in today.

But the Hebrew, translated directly and literally to English, wouldn't use the word "witch". Instead it spoke of "caster of harmful spells". As a convenient sound bite, think "black magic" or "black witch".

Much later one of the Apostles warned against the casting of spells, or pretending to cast spells. But the whole "Suffer not a Witch to live" thing is a bad translation catering to the paranoia of an English King in the early 1600s.

As pointed out, it came in rather late in the game, and wasn't at all in line with religious doctrine of the past. More of a fad, like the "Communists under the bed" mania of 1950s America.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But not by much, and D&D certainly did much to promote the conception.
D&D's barely on the mainstream radar, I think the increasing secularization is what's drove the concept of the wizard as having less to do with invoking supernatural powers (fantasy-religion), and more with manipulating supernatural forces (fantasy-science).

The modern conception of the wizard didn't predate D&D by very many decades.
Vance's Dying Earth is the most obvious culprit for D&D's take on magic, and it predates the game by 20 years.

Even as late as Crowley, he fits within my magician as priest definition, and for that matter quite readily fits the idea of a 'witch'.
And neo-pagans cribbed more than they'd like to admit from him, yes. ;) But, that's why I included him as an example, English culture was still very religious in his day.

Agreed, and that is the point. Tear the religion out of the occult tracts Gygax pursued in investigating magic to create D&D, and you end up with wizards. The less of the occult that remains in it, the more recognizably modern the class actually is.
I'd say secular, rather than modern, but yes. I don't feel like giving Gygax any credit for sanitizing the occult of religious implications, though, I think we push that up the line a generation or two.

But, no, not that many decades.

But if you leave in the traditional practice, the divide between Arcane and Divide that dominates how D&D views magic doesn't really exist.
It's a pretty narrow, divide, really. Divine casters heal, arcanists don't - for most of D&D history, that was the most significant difference. They're still casting many of the same spells. :shrug:
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You realize that the texts in question were written 1000's of years before the early modern witch scare and as a result referred to a wholly different sort of witchcraft than existed in the imagination of the 1600's, right?
I think that is kind of a non-sequiter actually as the Code of Hammurabi is an arguable early echo of the ideas but definitely shouldnt be considered the texts in question. Partly because those following the religion would reject it outright (ok you may be right) I am not sure that it matters how far back the nonsense began that it was allowed to propagate seems to mean it was accepted later.

We do not even have anything approaching direct versions of anything from the 300s when they had opportunity to reject utterly the concept of witchcraft.

King James version is the most-read version of the Bible in the United States CURRENTLY if popularity is the measure one could just call it THE bible -- > Check out Africa for people dying because of this superstition right now.

https://www.livescience.com/10603-belief-witchcraft-leads-murders-africa.html

55 perent of us bible readers, read KJ vs its closest contender of 19 percent - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

Yes the murder of witches is a cherry most of the religious do not generally pick now but it once was and they barely seem to bother removing evil from their books. The number of people declaring this not so modern text "the perfect/word of god' is in the range of 40 percent in the US so this is not just a fluke, we have outright science rejection from this same source but that is subject of a separate discussion.

I blame religion for conditioning people to accept things based not on reason but on bald faced authority generally the bible/koran and the priestly authority who set themselves up as its interpretters ie it is their power, but that same conditioning enables others not just the church to more easily push various irrational claims (including later the persecution of jews).

The writer of Malleus Maleficarum wasnt exactly secular he was part of that religious hierarchy and said something that both fit with the bible and what the people wanted to believe. You know when the 2 most read books of the land both arguably religious sources say X and the believers do X, we can still have some priests asserting Y (but which do we call the actual "religion"?). I find the events difficult to not consider as sitting broadly on the doorstep of that religion.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Read a bit beyond the English translations, which were heavily influenced by King James.

The most read version currently..... 55 percent of US bible readers

But the Hebrew, translated directly and literally to English, wouldn't use the word "witch". Instead it spoke of "caster of harmful spells". As a convenient sound bite, think "black magic" or "black witch".

Not sure it matters that caster of harmful spells became witch...

But the whole "Suffer not a Witch to live" thing is a bad translation catering to the paranoia of an English King in the early 1600s.

What is it a bad translation of then... kill those who cast harmful spells I am not seeing the actual improvement?

There are plenty of verses to draw on for those who wanted to kill those of other beliefs.
 



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