But does it float?
Just becaue it's October - Witches?
Random Bystander
First Post
...If your magic-user is an Awakened Duck, are they automagically a witch?
Tony Vargas
Legend
Warlock fluff is close to the vision of witches as devil-worshipers, the classic-game Dragon Magazine witches are essentially monsters/fairy-tale witches like the D&D Hag but more detailed/powerful, the Essentials Wizard(Witch) was a bit like the rehabilitated neo-pagan vision of the witch as a sort of wise-woman/wiccan but stopped short of being an actual priestess.
It must, it weighs less than a duck!
Yep, pretty much. My own conception of a “Witch” class is very close to the last option. I just loved the Witch from Heroes of the Feywild, and have spent some time clarifying its fluff; especially by comparing similarities and differences from normal Wizards. The process known as Witchcraft is pretty priest-like, but isn’t a proper priesthood (usually).
Although, I must say the first option is easily doable by the third…
Celebrim
Legend
As long as we are discussing what witches should be, it's worth noting that the term has no meaning outside of context.
The original witches were the priestesses of Hecate, who kept her secret rites. We know virtually nothing about them.
The origin of the modern ideas about witches are in the animist priesthoods of pre-Christian northern Europe. Initially, this idea of witches was not specifically gendered, as there were plenty of male 'witches' as well.
Christianity traditionally has seen all non-Christian religion as deceits of the devil and has largely seen its mission as to destroy all superstition in the world in consequence. (This may seem ironic if you aren't religious but is actually a hugely important historical trend.) Consequently, any animist tradition that it encountered was treated as a sort of devil worship. Again, originally, this idea of witches was not specifically gendered, and plenty of male 'witches' were described and sometimes executed.
By the medieval period, even as late as the late Dark Ages, non-Christian religious traditions didn't even exist in the oral tradition of Europe, much less in actual practice. (Indeed, the most famous of these - the Druids - had actually ceased to exist completely even before Christianity existed, having been utterly extinguished under Roman persecution.) We know virtually nothing about those pre-Christian European traditions - they had been totally destroyed and almost nothing much had been written about them before they disappeared. The handful of sentences written about them were often written generations after they ceased to exist by people with no reason to correctly report their practices and obvious bias against them. But in the early modern period, a number of writers popularized the notion of modern (to them) witchcraft still being practiced in Europe. There is almost no evidence that any of this actually existed, but the notion terrified and appalled much of Europe and entered into the popular imagination. The result was a 'witch scare' that ran rampant through the secular institutions of Europe lasted several centuries and ended up killing over the course of it several 10's of thousands of people - probably largely the mentally ill. (In the popular imagination, it was the Catholic Church - the 'Inquisition' - carrying out this, but this is a misnomer. Most of the educated clergy were somewhat skeptical of the whole affair, and most 'Inquisitions' such as the Spanish Inquisition were carried out under secular authority quite against the wishes of the Clerical hierarchy. The Spanish Inquisition was repeatedly denounced by the Pope, for example. And most of the worst witch scares occurred in newly Protestant areas. The Spanish Inquisition in fact acquires its infamy through Protestant propagandists in England, who were eager to make their national foes seem more villainous.) While both men and women were executed for 'witch craft', the longer the moral scare went on the more gendered it became in the public imagination. Ultimately, the idea of the witch became consolidated around elderly women living alone (except perhaps with a cat for company). Senility and eccentricity then became the reason for fear (and often greed, since it was easy to buy the property of a widow with no relations). This notion of the 'witch' became the monster of children's story, and is the 'witch' found in the writings of for example Shakespeare and his contemporaries.
At about the same time as the 'witch scare', Northern Europe actually entered into a Renaissance in education, literacy, art, and invention. The southern European Renaissance had been marked by the romanticization of the achievements of ancient Europe - Rome and Greece - as well as a revival in the interest in the writings of that time. Northern European scholars suffered from an intense case of cultural jealousy, as they had no equivalent period of ancient achievement to point to, Northern Europe up to High Middle Ages having been among the most primitive and backward places on the planet. As a result, several writers invented whole cloth the appearance, rites, and mythology we associate with Ancient Druidic practice. With literally nothing to go on, they invented the notion of Druids as a male ancient astronomer philosopher priesthood, robed and bearded and obsessed with mistletoe and holly and so forth. A similar period of invention is found in the Victorian period, as the Victorians again rehabilitated these imagined astronomer philosophers as forerunners of English achievement. This would not be important to our discussion of what witches were except that in the mid-20th century, there was yet another revival of interest in pre-Christian European tradition, this time amongst people looking for a more European spiritual tradition that the Jewish derived "cult" of Christianity. Neo-pagan groups invented a new vibrant religious practice from the prior imagination of old white guys, repurposed according to their preferred morality. Among this invention was the notion of Wicca, which created yet another idea of what it meant to be a 'witch'.
And yet more ideas of what it means to be 'witch' can be found in modern fantasy, such as the "Witch = Nerd" analogy found in the writings of Terry Pratchett and J.K. Rawlings.
For my part, virtually every practicing magician of every historical magical tradition is in fact an animist priest or derived from an animist priest. The whole notion of a "wizard" is in my opinion a D&Dism scarcely to be found in real world tradition, and barely found in fantasy literature prior to D&D. All real historical wizards are in fact clerics, or more specifically shamans. This can be verified by any cursory examination of the occult. Real world magical traditions do not postulate the irrational idea that people can by the force of their will or the depth of their study force reality to conform to their wishes. That notion is laughable to anyone with any experience of reality. Instead, all magical traditions postulate that a well studied person can by secret rites and knowledge make bargains with or force supernatural beings to conform to certain laws that govern their behavior, with the result of having these supernatural beings or forces work the will of the magician. Indeed, the relics of this version of the M-U can be found in some of the occult trappings of the 1e AD&D M-U. But these occult trappings were removed during the occult scare and not found at all in the 2e 'Wizard' with its explicit focus on the Tolkienesq fireball throwing, lightning bolt casting 'Wizard' Gandalf.
But if you want a witch, all the various notions of what it means to be witch aside from repurposing like Pratchett and Rawlings have this in common - they are all animist priests that make bargains with spirits to obtain magical power. (It's another D&Dism that you aren't a priest, that is a cleric, if regardless of what sort of polytheistic tradition you belong to, you don't have the trappings and veritable monotheistic viewpoint of a Catholic priesthood. You can tell its a D&Dist polytheism if they start talking about "Faith" as if it was in anyway meaningful to the religion.) It's for this reason that I suggested that you could hardly do better than Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook, and that their Shaman's Handbook actually captured the reality of historical 'witchcraft' better than their Witch's Handbook with its nods to modern Wiccan beliefs about 'witches'.
The original witches were the priestesses of Hecate, who kept her secret rites. We know virtually nothing about them.
The origin of the modern ideas about witches are in the animist priesthoods of pre-Christian northern Europe. Initially, this idea of witches was not specifically gendered, as there were plenty of male 'witches' as well.
Christianity traditionally has seen all non-Christian religion as deceits of the devil and has largely seen its mission as to destroy all superstition in the world in consequence. (This may seem ironic if you aren't religious but is actually a hugely important historical trend.) Consequently, any animist tradition that it encountered was treated as a sort of devil worship. Again, originally, this idea of witches was not specifically gendered, and plenty of male 'witches' were described and sometimes executed.
By the medieval period, even as late as the late Dark Ages, non-Christian religious traditions didn't even exist in the oral tradition of Europe, much less in actual practice. (Indeed, the most famous of these - the Druids - had actually ceased to exist completely even before Christianity existed, having been utterly extinguished under Roman persecution.) We know virtually nothing about those pre-Christian European traditions - they had been totally destroyed and almost nothing much had been written about them before they disappeared. The handful of sentences written about them were often written generations after they ceased to exist by people with no reason to correctly report their practices and obvious bias against them. But in the early modern period, a number of writers popularized the notion of modern (to them) witchcraft still being practiced in Europe. There is almost no evidence that any of this actually existed, but the notion terrified and appalled much of Europe and entered into the popular imagination. The result was a 'witch scare' that ran rampant through the secular institutions of Europe lasted several centuries and ended up killing over the course of it several 10's of thousands of people - probably largely the mentally ill. (In the popular imagination, it was the Catholic Church - the 'Inquisition' - carrying out this, but this is a misnomer. Most of the educated clergy were somewhat skeptical of the whole affair, and most 'Inquisitions' such as the Spanish Inquisition were carried out under secular authority quite against the wishes of the Clerical hierarchy. The Spanish Inquisition was repeatedly denounced by the Pope, for example. And most of the worst witch scares occurred in newly Protestant areas. The Spanish Inquisition in fact acquires its infamy through Protestant propagandists in England, who were eager to make their national foes seem more villainous.) While both men and women were executed for 'witch craft', the longer the moral scare went on the more gendered it became in the public imagination. Ultimately, the idea of the witch became consolidated around elderly women living alone (except perhaps with a cat for company). Senility and eccentricity then became the reason for fear (and often greed, since it was easy to buy the property of a widow with no relations). This notion of the 'witch' became the monster of children's story, and is the 'witch' found in the writings of for example Shakespeare and his contemporaries.
At about the same time as the 'witch scare', Northern Europe actually entered into a Renaissance in education, literacy, art, and invention. The southern European Renaissance had been marked by the romanticization of the achievements of ancient Europe - Rome and Greece - as well as a revival in the interest in the writings of that time. Northern European scholars suffered from an intense case of cultural jealousy, as they had no equivalent period of ancient achievement to point to, Northern Europe up to High Middle Ages having been among the most primitive and backward places on the planet. As a result, several writers invented whole cloth the appearance, rites, and mythology we associate with Ancient Druidic practice. With literally nothing to go on, they invented the notion of Druids as a male ancient astronomer philosopher priesthood, robed and bearded and obsessed with mistletoe and holly and so forth. A similar period of invention is found in the Victorian period, as the Victorians again rehabilitated these imagined astronomer philosophers as forerunners of English achievement. This would not be important to our discussion of what witches were except that in the mid-20th century, there was yet another revival of interest in pre-Christian European tradition, this time amongst people looking for a more European spiritual tradition that the Jewish derived "cult" of Christianity. Neo-pagan groups invented a new vibrant religious practice from the prior imagination of old white guys, repurposed according to their preferred morality. Among this invention was the notion of Wicca, which created yet another idea of what it meant to be a 'witch'.
And yet more ideas of what it means to be 'witch' can be found in modern fantasy, such as the "Witch = Nerd" analogy found in the writings of Terry Pratchett and J.K. Rawlings.
For my part, virtually every practicing magician of every historical magical tradition is in fact an animist priest or derived from an animist priest. The whole notion of a "wizard" is in my opinion a D&Dism scarcely to be found in real world tradition, and barely found in fantasy literature prior to D&D. All real historical wizards are in fact clerics, or more specifically shamans. This can be verified by any cursory examination of the occult. Real world magical traditions do not postulate the irrational idea that people can by the force of their will or the depth of their study force reality to conform to their wishes. That notion is laughable to anyone with any experience of reality. Instead, all magical traditions postulate that a well studied person can by secret rites and knowledge make bargains with or force supernatural beings to conform to certain laws that govern their behavior, with the result of having these supernatural beings or forces work the will of the magician. Indeed, the relics of this version of the M-U can be found in some of the occult trappings of the 1e AD&D M-U. But these occult trappings were removed during the occult scare and not found at all in the 2e 'Wizard' with its explicit focus on the Tolkienesq fireball throwing, lightning bolt casting 'Wizard' Gandalf.
But if you want a witch, all the various notions of what it means to be witch aside from repurposing like Pratchett and Rawlings have this in common - they are all animist priests that make bargains with spirits to obtain magical power. (It's another D&Dism that you aren't a priest, that is a cleric, if regardless of what sort of polytheistic tradition you belong to, you don't have the trappings and veritable monotheistic viewpoint of a Catholic priesthood. You can tell its a D&Dist polytheism if they start talking about "Faith" as if it was in anyway meaningful to the religion.) It's for this reason that I suggested that you could hardly do better than Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook, and that their Shaman's Handbook actually captured the reality of historical 'witchcraft' better than their Witch's Handbook with its nods to modern Wiccan beliefs about 'witches'.
Celebrim
Legend
You can protest all you like, but your fantasy is always deeply entwined with history. Fantasy literature is almost always deeply entwined with history, and the literature that is not strikes people as so odd and alien that they scarcely accept it as fantasy. There is a reason things like elves, dwarves, castles, swords, wizards, dragons and so forth keep recurring in what we call fantasy, and that is because history. Divest yourself of all of those things and all similar things, and I'll accept that you keep your history out of your fantasy.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
- which is why the biblical texts have prescriptions against witchcraft (and punishment descriptions) ?
Sounds to me like someone is white washing the affair and trying to make innocent the relatively direct source of the superstition -- religion -- and the persecution of any thing that smelled of a religion which was not their own.
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I think you misunderstood me...
Ok, I’ll explain.
There are many points to me made here.
First, fantasy (and, on a broader term, speculative fiction) tends to be much more about popular imagination than really History itself. There are numerous historical mistakes in the popular conception, along with many concepts impossible to work in real-world Physics. People still like it because it’s cool.
There’s nothing wrong with that. However, when someone starts to brag about how ninja and samurai were so different in medieval Japan, how a given weapon is impossible to exist in real-life, how many things were different in their original conception, it’s time to stop and think. Historical/scientific accuracy are good only as they improve our work, by being just cool and (in games) by gameplay. The exact moment they start being “Stop Having Fun, Guys!” is the moment we threw them in the trash can.
Actually, our very text is an example of what I’m just talking about: We do not follow the historical concept of “witch” at all! We follow popular imagination, gameplay and Rule of Cool.
Second: if fantasy’s magical practices were limited by the real-world practices, fantasy would be VERY limited. As in, “almost no fantasy RPG in any media would exist as we conceive them”. Fantasy is a tradition in itself, which is not exactly connected with real-world History or Physics.
Third: Gameplay. We already have a Shaman class. If people want a Witch class, then surely people want something at least a little different from the already-existing Shaman.
In the end:
Yes, I know my main concept of a witch is certainly connected to modern Wicca religion, and neo-paganism (Wicca, druidism, etc.) has barely nothing to prove their current believes were the ones the ancient people believed, but that truly doesn’t matter for fantasy.
Popular Imagination is not equal to History. Connected, sure, but a hell lot different; many times for no reason other than Rule of Cool. Anachronisms abound. If electronic RPGs depicted the full hygiene of the Middle Ages, for example, people would literally vomit before the screen.
So, yes, keep your science/history out of my fantasy!
And I’m pretty much done with this. There isn’t much more to be said. If this line of thought won’t convince you, someone like me also won’t.
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