Just becaue it's October - Witches?

Celebrim said:

But not by much, and D&D certainly did much to promote the conception. The modern conception of the wizard didn't predate D&D by very many decades.
Even as late as Crowley, he fits within my magician as priest definition, and for that matter quite readily fits the idea of a 'witch'.

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I agree the wizard as distinct from priest is mostly a very modern concept almost D&D specific. I usually use the phrase one mans witch is another sainted holy person.

Celebrim said:

But if you leave in the traditional practice, the divide between Arcane and Divide that dominates how D&D views magic doesn't really exist.

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When I look to find anyone using flash bang magic the closest I get is the Tuatha de Danan of early Celtic myth/legend. The Romans interpretted its members as gods like Lugh Samildanach.. but its not definite that those who told the stories didnt think of them as just heros... kind of like Gilgamesh.

My favorite witch is a Malediction Invoker from 4e... yes it is a divine class..

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sabrina, level 6
Human, Invoker
Build: Malediction Invoker
Theme: Alchemist
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Malediction
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Background: Hand-For-Hire (Heal class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 8.

AC: 22 Fort: 17 Reflex: 18 Will: 19
HP: 43 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Religion +10, History +10, Intimidate +7, Heal +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +3, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +3

FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Theme: Alchemy
Human: Arcane Initiate
Level 1: Wild Talent Master
Level 2: Alchemical Opportunist
Level 4: Learned Spellcaster
Level 6: Arcane Familiar

POWERS
Arcane Initiate: Beast Switch
Bonus At-Will Power: Vanguard's Lightning
Invoker at-will 1: Visions of Blood
Invoker at-will 1: Astral Wind
Wild Talent Master: Psionic Image
Wild Talent Master: Thought Projection
Wild Talent Master: Telekinetic Grasp
Invoker encounter 1: Astral Terror
Invoker daily 1: Invocation of Ice and Fire
Invoker utility 2: Miraculous Fortune
Invoker encounter 3: Word of Ruin
Invoker daily 5: Deluge of Blood
Invoker utility 6: Solid Fog

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Cape of the Mountebank +1, Adventurer's Kit, Earthroot Staff +2, Amulet of Life +1, Summoned Finemail +2
RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Animal Messenger, Brew Potion, Simbul's Conversion, Unseen Servant, Wizard's Curtain, Tree Shape, Summon Winds, Commune With Nature, Cure Disease, Magic Circle, Transfer Enchantment, Enchant Magic Item, Pyrotechnics, Comrades' Succor
FORMULAS
Drowsy Dust, Antivenom, Clearsense Powder, Tanglefoot Bag, Bloodstinger Poison, Alchemist's Acid, Alchemist's Fire, Alchemist's Frost, Dragonfire Tar, Scroll of Alchemist's Fire
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Tony Vargas said:

They do, a bit. The idea of will, intent, and the like is certainly there in many such traditions. Little bits taken out of context imply that sort of thing. "As I will so mote it be!" It's called 'magical thinking,' it's fairly intuitive, children often fall into it, for instance. You wish someone hurt, they get hurt, you think you did it.

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I have heard some enthusiastic arguments that the magic in Norse mythology was grounded in something almost like psionic mental powers...

For instance Odins Ravens are manifestations of Telepathy.

Tony Vargas said:

It's a pretty narrow, divide, really. Divine casters heal, arcanists don't - for most of D&D history, that was the most significant difference. They're still casting many of the same spells. :shrug:

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Christian religion asserted only its priests could heal ... so others must be fakes or simply not really able to, I think religion was the source of that distinction.

Lots of D&Disms regarding non-Druidic divine casters can be traced back to Western religious traditions and biblical passages.

Celebrim said:

This is a strawman argument. No one is suggesting that you don't have fun.

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When I watch movies I often analyse them (immediately after) but I have people tell me, why do you have to break it down like that and ruin it can't you just sit back and enjoy the show... I then explain that analyzing movies and their tropes and counter trope support etc is very much part of my fun, how could I enjoy it if i didnt?

Dannyalcatraz said:

Lots of D&Disms regarding non-Druidic divine casters can be traced back to Western religious traditions and biblical passages.

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Absolutely. It didn't get as much play as the satanism angle, but a complaint leveled at D&D was that it was offensive to Christians for trivializing biblical miracles by making them spells mere mortals could cast.

Tony Vargas said:

Absolutely. It didn't get as much play as the satanism angle, but a complaint leveled at D&D was that it was offensive to Christians for trivializing biblical miracles by making them spells mere mortals could cast.

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Ironically, Gary Gygax was (is?) Baptist; and several passages by prophets in the Bible express the wish that everyone had the faith to call down miracles.

Random Bystander said:

Ironically, Gary Gygax was (is?) Baptist; and several passages by prophets in the Bible express the wish that everyone had the faith to call down miracles.

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Comparative religion is endlessly detailed and fascinating, even within Christianity, itself. I had no idea about that particular Baptist belief. My family's lapsed Catholic, so I'm familiar with the dogma that the age of miracles is long since over (transubstantiation notwithstanding) - some Pope declared that centuries ago, so it's official.

Tony Vargas said:

Comparative religion is endlessly detailed and fascinating, even within Christianity, itself. I had no idea about that particular Baptist belief. My family's lapsed Catholic, so I'm familiar with the dogma that the age of miracles is long since over (transubstantiation notwithstanding) - some Pope declared that centuries ago, so it's official.

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Well, I can't speak for Baptist belief; I'm not Baptist. I am, however, fairly familiar with the original King James translation of the Bible.

Being *"Mormon", not Roman Catholic, I have a different opinion on the matter of the Roman Catholic Pope than a Roman Catholic would.

* A slang term, albeit one commonly used by us, as saying "I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" takes a few more syllables.