D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

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pemerton

Legend
Well, therein lies the rub: the Turami are definitely black, and have their own culture in-world. But that culture isn't an African analogue, but a Mediterranean, Hispano-Italiac Republican setup. I believe Rd Greenwood specifically wants to include black people in his world, but not make it some Pan-African pastiche (Greenwood didn't make Chult).
I find this a bit odd in itself. If we can have a fantasy Italian republic whose people are black, why can't we have a fantasy Italian republic whose people are black and speak an African-sounding language?

Or, for that matter - if we're playing mix-and-match - why don't the people of Cormyr have African-sounding names and language although they look and comport themselves as typical high mediaeval/early modern European types?

What drives Ed Greenwood's (and other's) sense of what is "essential", and what not, to evoking an archetype? (There may not be a straightforward answer.)
 

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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
First I want to say your point is more valid than any other I have seen thus far.

Now from what I am understanding your claim is that the individual posting that article is actually a consumer of the stuff -- okay I do not recall reading that in the article perhaps I missed that denoted fact-- or was that an assumption on your part? -- I mean all the inaccuracies and such kind of says they are not a true consumer but I could be wrong there as well -- however since I did not see them come out and state that they were then I am not going to assume that they are.

She's a DM.

Now if its a consumer complaint as you state -- okay it is still next to worthless drivel to anyone except the company in question as again it does not put forth any potential solutions or even solicit any -- so basically about as useful as that one guy who said read the email by so-in-so about 5 messages back -- whose guesstimate appears to maybe have been incorrect -- which we won't know for sure until they chime back in -- but again next to useless if you want someone to act appropriately upon your consumer complaint.

You really need to work on your word choice. "Worthless drivel"? If you'd bothered to pay any real attention to this thread you would have found a number of posters here find the article interesting and challenging. Calling things "worthless drivel" smacks of insufferable arrogance.
 

DeJoker

First Post
The same complaints WERE made back then. The the public outlets for those complaints AND the audience of listeners was appreciably smaller, though.

It took @20 years of growth in the hobby before you could find an "African" mini, and even those were limited in number & style. Out of 10k+ minis in my possession, I have...3-10? (Depending on how you count them.)

Likewise, that was about the same time we saw a decrease in whitewashed art.

Yep good facts -- so yes things are improving as things within general society improve -- and but those changes have come about mostly due to someone coming up with a solution along with their complaints -- and I suppose the other complaints did not hurt things for them per-sae but they did not overly help either -- provide a solution or suggest one or at least solicit some -- rather than just condemn. That is my point and what I am trying to drive home -- Solution : Be proactive do not just passively complain. (in case it was missed)
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
They can't.

Reasons, in order of importance-

1. IP, IP, IP (freely). D&D is a brand, specifically a small part of the larger WoTC, which is a small part of the larger Hasbro. The amount of money that the IP could theoretically make (in terms of a movie, or other licensing, production, etc.) dwarfs the money made from the game. The game can be used to continue to move the idea of the IP forward.

2. Legacy. A big part of 5e was bringing back the grognards, parents, people who had moved to retro-clones, and people that stayed with 3e/PF; the main differentiating factor is one of familiarity.

So while I agree with you in theory, I fully understand the business reasons behind their decision.

Yep - once I learned what a hole 4e had dug (with a lot of setting changes that pissed off a lot of people) I was not surprised that they decided to put most things back and pretend nothing happened. :)

/end of OT
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Now from what I am understanding your claim is that the individual posting that article is actually a consumer of the stuff -- okay I do not recall reading that in the article perhaps I missed that denoted fact-- or was that an assumption on your part?

The article was posted by a blogger/journalist. Several persons interviewed- including those with the most negative types of comments- were gamers talking about the product. IOW, customers. Maybe "former" customers, now.

So can you answer that question -- Does WotC truly care about their customer base or are they perhaps just playing lip service to them in order to maintain profit longer or do the obviously not care?

I believe I have answered, but I reiterate: progress has been made; much remains to do. The progress that has been made indicates some level of care. The continued blind spots in evidence indicate their care may be minimal or misdirected.

Because, let's be honest: given how overwhelmingly white-male centric the hobby is- at least in the USA*- getting incrementally closer to non-whitewashed cultural inclusiveness isn't going to affect the product's long-term profitability more than a notch or two.







* been gaming since 1977, in 5 cities in 3 states: including myself, I personally know 5 black gamers, 1 Asian and 1 Hispanic one- all male, FWIW. All the female gamers I know (fewer than 20) are white.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Yep good facts -- so yes things are improving as things within general society improve -- and but those changes have come about mostly due to someone coming up with a solution along with their complaints -- and I suppose the other complaints did not hurt things for them per-sae but they did not overly help either -- provide a solution or suggest one or at least solicit some -- rather than just condemn. That is my point and what I am trying to drive home -- Solution : Be proactive do not just passively complain. (in case it was missed)

Great advice... So let me see if I have it straight... While WotC is secretly developing their next adventure and/or setting we should proactively get involved and steer them away from lazy tropes?

I'll make sure to do that. Thanks! :hmm:
 


Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
The same complaints WERE made back then. The the public outlets for those complaints AND the audience of listeners was appreciably smaller, though.

It took @20 years of growth in the hobby before you could find an "African" mini, and even those were limited in number & style. Out of 10k+ minis in my possession, I have...3-10? (Depending on how you count them.)

Likewise, that was about the same time we saw a decrease in whitewashed art.

Though was the market there for "African minis"? Compared to the known sales you get from banging out more elves, knights, and wizards in traditional RPG style.
 

DeJoker

First Post
She's a DM.
Ah thanks I missed that in my cursory read of the next to worthless complaint -- as I have previously defined the meaning of this I will not do it again.
You really need to work on your word choice. "Worthless drivel"? If you'd bothered to pay any real attention to this thread you would have found a number of posters here find the article interesting and challenging. Calling things "worthless drivel" smacks of insufferable arrogance.
Seeing as I clearly defined what I was calling worthless drivel and why I was calling it worthless drivel I stand by my word choice -- however what I do not stand my is your lame attempt to redefine my stance to suit your argument and point it at the people who like the article -- just because the article was worthless drivel per my definition of what that meant -- does not in any way shape or form extend to anyone who felt it had merit -- my criterion does not extend outside the article itself. Please quit trying to start a flame-war with your lies.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
At some point, I have to assume you either lack self-awareness, or you simply don't care. I'm not which is worse, but I will assume in good-faith that you lack self-awareness.

So I will put this to you in the most basic terms possible.

After the issue of, loosely paraphrased, "I can ignore any possible critique if there isn't a solution with it," was already briefly raised, and rubbished, in these comments, you raised it again. Of course, you have managed to continually switch the issue of what is being discussed, since it is self-evident that is an absurd position. No one disagrees that solutions are awesome; instead, the point is that criticism is something that is orthogonal to a solution. So, as I first put in the list of example which is similar to what is at issue, no one expect a reviewer, or a critic, to "have a solution," to something they point out.

If someone doesn't like all the lens flares in J. J. Abrams work, they don't have to volunteer to be his cinematographer.

Moreover, your point regarding business doesn't make sense. No one (neither [MENTION=6862725]Danny[/MENTION]alcatrz nor I) was saying this was a business; you were. Instead, we were simply noting that in a business, consumer and employee (and, for that matter, all stakeholder) complaints are taken seriously. And no, compliance with federal, state, and local law is not necessarily a human resources issue; I understand your confusion with the initial reference to "hostile work environment," but this would be just as applicable to someone claiming that the machines seemed too pointy (OSHA) or that sensors were miscalibrated (federal and state environmental).

Now you seem to have some bizarre notion that this has to be a "product or process issue." Which has nothing to do with the OP, but again is completely wrong. If an employee tells the employer, "Line 20 is 20% slower than the rest," does the employer say, "Dude. You didn't give me a solution. So that doesn't count. Suck it up, whiny buttercup, because I don't care about my profits. I only care about DeJoker's theoretical rules on the internet for what employers care about!" My practical experience tells me ... no.

But moving on, you clearly have a need to highjack this thread and throw aspersions around. Seriously- look at the last 20 comments. I fully agree with what [MENTION=18340]CM[/MENTION]ad and [MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION] wrote, and they did so succinctly. Put another way, either everyone but you is missing the point, or you are. And given that I know the rest of these people (even though we often disagree on other issues), I am comfortable that I am not the one misreading this situation.

The first rule of holes is to stop digging; we all get a little intemperate at times. I would really suggest looking at your posts and deciding if you want to be that guy. This is a forum about having fun with D&D; try and have fun.

I think most gamers are somewhere on the spectrum as they say. It sure feels like that at least.
 

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