D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

pemerton · Oct 23, 2017

DeJoker said:
Solution : Be proactive do not just passively complain.

DeJoker said:
I was not attempting to write a sensitive piece I was simply pointing out the over looked facts that the "overly sensitive out pourings" of the original author seemed to have not covered in their so heart felt dismissal of all those other folks. If he had not wanted a response he most likely would not have personally and condescendingly pointed me to it as the possible post the original individual had told me to go look at -- a fact that he could not say was even true making the condescending nature of his post that much worse which kind of explains why he so easily dismissed those others. Further no one seems to even care that the overly sensitive post was actually very insensitive as well -- must have simply had better window dressing.

I don't understand this - eg who is "he" the "original author"?

But anyway, your proposal seems to be that the solution to exclusion from popular culture is to create one's own popular culture. But a well-known alternative to what you propose is to agitate for change to the existing culture. Which is what is going on in the article (and some of the blogs that it references).

(The fact that you characterise agitation as passive complaint is another point against your post.)

DeJoker · Oct 23, 2017

Dannyalcatraz said:
The article was posted by a blogger/journalist. Several persons interviewed- including those with the most negative types of comments- were gamers talking about the product. IOW, customers. Maybe "former" customers, now.

I believe I have answered, but I reiterate: progress has been made; much remains to do. The progress that has been made indicates some level of care. The continued blind spots in evidence indicate their care may be minimal or misdirected.

Because, let's be honest: given how overwhelmingly white-male centric the hobby is- at least in the USA*- getting incrementally closer to non-whitewashed cultural inclusiveness isn't going to affect the product's long-term profitability more than a notch or two.

Thanks that synopsis was probably the most useful that as been posted in response to anything I have stated.

I still feel they fell short of the mark -- they being gamers they ought to have some ideas of how to improve things in the direction that they seemed to have wanted things to go so why was that not part of the post -- why did they choose to stop short of actually creating something with substance and thus value that could have propelled things in the direction they seem to feel things ought to be heading?

DeJoker · Oct 23, 2017

robus said:
Great advice... So let me see if I have it straight... While WotC is secretly developing their next adventure and/or setting we should proactively get involved and steer them away from lazy tropes?

I'll make sure to do that. Thanks!

Great

and perhaps if you do by suggesting things they can use (thus feeding into their laziness) to make the product better they will actually use those things -- especially if you give it to them for free. I think they have beta testers and such -- or at least they used to -- if you feel strongly about this then by all means pursue it -- who knows your Active participation in improving things just might have results -- sitting back and just complaining often does nothing but project hot air.

Alexemplar · Oct 23, 2017

DeJoker said:
Yep good facts -- so yes things are improving as things within general society improve -- and but those changes have come about mostly due to someone coming up with a solution along with their complaints -- and I suppose the other complaints did not hurt things for them per-sae but they did not overly help either -- provide a solution or suggest one or at least solicit some -- rather than just condemn. That is my point and what I am trying to drive home -- Solution : Be proactive do not just passively complain. (in case it was missed)

Before anyone came up with a solution to those complaints, they had to recognize that there was an issue worth resolving. If you think that existing D&D products are doing a good enough job when it comes to African fantasy or their handling of Chult, you're not ever going to bother coming up with or utilizing a solution. In fact, if you don't accept that there's a problem, you're more likely to get defensive and double down whenever a solution is presented- insisting that there's no problem in the first place.

2017 was not the first time anyone ever felt D&D's handling of Africa was lacking in content or substance or tone. D&D has been on this track for a while to the point where WotC not only hasn't provided much for African fantasy options but has actively destroyed them such as the destruction the city of Mezro and Lapal League during the spellplague, which were not returned in 5e when much of the rest of the setting returned to the previous status quo.

Personally speaking, I've provided examples of how African fantasy can be done better. I DM my own homebrew that has more diverse African-inspire cultures. I supported the people at Atlas Games, the folks behind Nyambe, and put money into the Kickstarter for Spears of the Dawn. I use the continent of Nyambe as a replacement for Chult/Mwangi Expanse whenever I run Forgotten Realms/Pathfinder games. I've posted in many online discussions explaining different aspects of sub-Saharan History, cultures, and relayed game mechanics. I've been playing D&D for 17 years and wanting more from D&D for about 15, with no real improvement.

So am I allowed to voice criticism of WotC regarding their handling of Chult and African fantasy up until now and into the future?

Dannyalcatraz · Oct 23, 2017

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Though was the market there for "African minis"? Compared to the known sales you get from banging out more elves, knights, and wizards in traditional RPG style.

Market research might hold the answer; don't know that any has been done.

One thing is for sure, though: you can't sell products that don't exist.*

* barring fraud or pre-production funding, of course.

lowkey13 · Oct 23, 2017

*Deleted by user*

Dannyalcatraz · Oct 23, 2017

DeJoker said:
Yep good facts -- so yes things are improving as things within general society improve -- and but those changes have come about mostly due to someone coming up with a solution along with their complaints --

Somehow, I doubt anyone complaining about the dearth of African themed minis or how the gods of Egypt looked like Western Europeans offered solutions- the solutions are implicit within the complaints themselves. :erm:

DeJoker · Oct 23, 2017

lowkey13 said:
So I will put this to you in the most basic terms possible.

Always appreciated assuming it is useful in some way.

lowkey13 said:
After the issue of, loosely paraphrased, "I can ignore any possible critique if there isn't a solution with it," was already briefly raised, and rubbished, in these comments, you raised it again. Of course, you have managed to continually switch the issue of what is being discussed, since it is self-evident that is an absurd position. No one disagrees that solutions are awesome; instead, the point is that criticism is something that is orthogonal to a solution. So, as I first put in the list of examples which are similar to what is at issue, no one expects a reviewer, or a critic, to "have a solution," to something they point out.

Hmmm maybe you feel that way but you cannot truthfully extend that to everyone and expect it to hold water. And did you mean to say orthogonal (statistically independent -- or in regards to a Debate : not relevant) -- if so you are saying the criticism of something is not relevant to a solution -- to which I would say then the criticism is not relevant to the issue as it has no relevancy.

lowkey13 said:
If someone doesn't like all the lens flares in J. J. Abrams' work, they don't have to volunteer to be his cinematographer.

No but if they felt they could do a better job then they ought to put their money where your mouth is -- as that ole saying goes. Put up or shut up. Complaining about something for the mere sake of complaining is about as useful as a broken tea cup -- does that mean it has not become accepted as a means of expressing oneself -- nope lots of people do it -- does the fact that lots of people do it or that lots of folks think its okay nope - otherwise we would still have slavery in the US -- and further there is no secret that this world is full of lots of negative oriented folks that seemingly are only interested in tearing things down rather than building things up. My statement is : Stop be destructive and start being constructive. Maybe I do not say it pretty enough maybe my bluntness is to harsh *shrug* okay that I understand but I will keep trying to get the message out no matter how poorly I deliver it -- perhaps someday someone will pick it that states things prettier than I do and communicate it a more receptive manner.

lowkey13 said:
Moreover, your point regarding business doesn't make sense. No one (neither [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] nor I) was saying this was a business; you were. Instead, we were simply noting that in a business, consumer and employee (and, for that matter, all stakeholder) complaints are taken seriously. And no, compliance with federal, state, and local law is not necessarily a human resources issue; I understand your confusion with the initial reference to "hostile work environment," but this would be just as applicable to someone claiming that the machines seemed too pointy (OSHA) or that sensors were miscalibrated (federal and state environmental).

Okay so what are you saying here -- that WotC is not a business and the article was not reviewing a product? --or that WotC is not complying with federal, state, or local law?? --or that some other governmental regulatory agency should be involved in reviewing WotC's products??? --or that I some how misconstrued your taking the problem from a simple product issue into to some sort of legal issue that was -- from my understanding -- not being discussed at all.

lowkey13 said:
Now you seem to have some bizarre notion that this has to be a "product or process issue." Which has nothing to do with the OP, but again is completely wrong. If an employee tells the employer, "Line 20 is 20% slower than the rest," does the employer say, "Dude. You didn't give me a solution. So that doesn't count. Suck it up, whiny buttercup, because I don't care about my profits. I only care about DeJoker's theoretical rules on the internet for what employers care about!" My practical experience tells me ... no.

No they probably will not do as you described but should said employ then state they have no solution -- then I (if I were that manager) would have to wonder if the reason for that line running 20% slower then say the other 2 lines was perhaps by design. Further if they even said that lines seems to be running slower than the others -- which by the way is not a complaint but an observation and there is a big difference there -- then I would most likely ask about that observation to determine its validity but then again it was not a complaint but an observation. Are saying that this "article" was written as an observational piece rather than a complaint? I was reading complaint in its tone but then I could have been wrong.

lowkey13 said:
But moving on, you clearly have a need to highjack this thread and throw aspersions around. Seriously- look at the last 20 comments. I fully agree with what [MENTION=6791950]cmad1977[/MENTION] and @robus wrote, and they did so succinctly. Put another way, either everyone but you is missing the point, or you are. And given that I know the rest of these people (even though we often disagree on other issues), I am comfortable that I am not the one misreading this situation.

Ah I see -- because the majority is in agreement then the other person must be wrong -- you are aware that the majority of the world believed it was flat and they were in agreement on this -- so did that make them right?

lowkey13 said:
The first rule of holes is to stop digging; we all get a little intemperate at times. I would really suggest looking at your posts and deciding if you want to be that guy. This is a forum about having fun with D&D; try and have fun.

Yep I do try to have fun but I find it sooo sad when folks criticize something else without putting forth something positive in exchange -- pure negativity is never fun -- probably should have responded to this post at all as it is evident that some folks here find the blunt truth to be unpleasant. Oh well.

DeJoker · Oct 23, 2017

Alexemplar said:
Personally speaking, I've provided examples of how African fantasy can be done better. I DM my own homebrew that has more diverse African-inspire cultures. I supported the people at Atlas Games, the folks behind Nyambe, and put money into the Kickstarter for Spears of the Dawn. I use the continent of Nyambe as a replacement for Chult/Mwangi Expanse whenever I run Forgotten Realms/Pathfinder games. I've posted in many online discussions explaining different aspects of sub-Saharan History, cultures, and relayed game mechanics. I've been playing D&D for 17 years and wanting more from D&D for about 15, with no real improvement.

So am I allowed to voice criticism of WotC regarding their handling of Chult and African fantasy up until now and into the future?

Okay ?? And you wrote the article this thread is about ?? If not, then I am not understanding the purpose of this comment.

Parmandur · Oct 23, 2017

pemerton said:
I find this a bit odd in itself. If we can have a fantasy Italian republic whose people are black, why can't we have a fantasy Italian republic whose people are black and speak an African-sounding language?

Or, for that matter - if we're playing mix-and-match - why don't the people of Cormyr have African-sounding names and language although they look and comport themselves as typical high mediaeval/early modern European types?

What drives Ed Greenwood's (and other's) sense of what is "essential", and what not, to evoking an archetype? (There may not be a straightforward answer.)

There really probably isn't much of a straightforward answer to be found.

Turmish is close to Coromyr and the Dalelands, the actual site of Greenwood's main home campaign in the "Heartlands," and explicitly the source for people to have black PCs in his game. From my understanding, Greenwood is actually not that big into real world cultural analogues in his home game: TSR in the 90's, however, was deeply obsessed with real world analogues, so areas added by other writers (like Chult or Maztica) are more...problematic on that level.