D&D 5E Forget about the treasure and pricing system of 5E!

CapnZapp

Legend
Mind. Boggled.

Of course WotC hasn't carefully calibrated these numbers - it's just a legacy inherited from previous editions.

Dungeons & Dragons has always featured heaps and heaps of gold at high levels. (I blame Smaug!)

At least in 3rd edition you had useful items you could buy for all that gold... even as you kept adventuring.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

log in or register to remove this ad

lkwpeter

Explorer
Thanks for all your reply!

What I'm doing about gold piece income in my OOTA campaign is this: instead of a roughly 10x increase in the gold per hoard per tier, I'm making it 5x. For example, tier 1 hoards are worth about 375 gp. Instead of the RAW 4000gp or so for tier 2, I make it nearer 2000. It is that increase by an order of magnitude at each tier that seems to me to make gold earned crazy. This is (roughly) what it looks like. [...]

Left hand is increase by 10 (per RAW), right hand is increase by 5.

You can still generate parcels using the DMG tables: just reduce the value of fungible loot. Halve the value of tier 2 hoards, quarter the value of tier 3 hoards, and take one-eighth​ the value of tier 4 hoards.
So, this is simply reducing the loot by a factor. For example, if I want to take factor 5 (instead of 10) I simply halve all treasure in my official WotC campagin, right? That means that even if you halve all loot using factor 5, the party will gain over 520.000 GP in their carreer (instead or 3.500.000 GP). Both amounts seem insane for me. I think even dozens of Resurrections wouldn't fix that. But, as you said, it offers opportunites of adjustment.

I think the main problem is adjusting treasure hoards the right way, so that gold isn't useless (because of exorbitant amounts). To make that sure, maybe it could help, if the the DM does the following:

1.) The DM should concern hisself with the total treasure table. (see vonklaude's post)
The DM needs to know in what way possession is going to develope over a campaign. Otherwise he won't be able to estimate the accumulation of gold/treaure by the characters (magic items excluded).

2.) Then the DM needs to be aware of what he wants the characters to be able to afford.
This is important, so he can set his personal factor for treasure (including gems and art). For example, if he plans to let them build a Stronghold they will need huge amounts of money. He might choose a factor of 5 what gives them 70.000 GP on level 10. In contrast, if he does not plan to find a way to "burn money" he might even choose a factor of 2 or less. Otherwise, characters will swim in gold without any possibility to spend it (what makes it useless).

3.) At last, set a personal treasure factor and recalculate treasure:
If playing an official campaign, the factor per hoard per tier increases by 10. Now, the factor has to be adjusted to fit the DM's idea of gold possession. For example, if you have chosen a factor 2 (because you don't want your characters to build castles, etc.) you need to divide all trasure by 5 (10 : 5 = 2).

To me, this looks like a possibility to watch trasure accumulation foresightly.





Nevertheless, there is still a problem that seems impossible to fix:

  • Let's say the DM decides that he wants his characters to build a Keep, etc. and therefore chooses a high treasure factor that enriches them with hundrets of thousands of gold during the campaign.
  • That leads to the problem that anything else in the game has almost no value to the characters. Because if they posses tons of gold, they won't care for those ridiculous amounts for lodging, equipment, mounts, etc. anymore. From a specific point on, they will be able to buy ANYTHING they want to.
  • The problem increases, if you decide to make magic consumables available for purchase (even through a transparent system), because even magic consumables would be easy to afford. And the broken prices make it even more unpredictable (please no discussion about that!).
The main problem is that there is absolutely no sane ratio between prices. And even if you find a way to adjust prices (like using Sane Magic Item Prices) there is a huge gap between normal equipment, lifestyle costs, etc. and 3.500.000 GP treasure that the characters will get from treasure hoards during 20 levels.

For me, that means: If the DM doesn't find a way to continuously "burn money" there is a huge inbalance between "reasonable prices" and the character's personal treasure. Of course, you could say that magic item availability is "optional" and for this reason I shouldn't complain about balancing prices. But the problem also exists with the suggested prices for equipment, mounts, lodging, etc. of the PHB that become obsolet from around level 3-4 when characters begin to possess insane amounts of treasure compared to the rest of the game world.

Our table decided that it would spice up the game to make at least some magic consumables available under very limited circumstances (Vendor System). At the moment our party possesses 22.000 GP on character level 13 what means that we can buy almost anything using Sane Magic Item Prices. Also gems for resurrection (1000 GP) are cheap for us.

I will suggest to use a factor that limits the possession of gold to a reasonable amount (maybe a few thousands - not hundrets of thousands), so that revivals and buying items are costly again, not inconsiderable. So, this topic has already been a great help for us! Thanks for your support!
 

lkwpeter

Explorer
Sorry they were not of use - I thought they would be a possible starting point for this request just as far as understanding how the original design does that: "Unfortunately, this requires some math, because you would have to set the ratio between XP and gold. Is there somebody experienced and willing to do this? Furthermore, it would be perfect to have three different divisors, so the DM can easily adjust the wealth of the group: one divisor for "default loot", one for "reduced loot" and one for "increased loot"."
Yeah, you are right. I missed the chart showing gold and treasure developement. So, your link was ideed helpful! Sorry, mate! :)
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Our table decided that it would spice up the game to make at least some magic consumables available under very limited circumstances (Vendor System). At the moment our party possesses 22.000 GP on character level 13 what means that we can buy almost anything using Sane Magic Item Prices. Also gems for resurrection (1000 GP) are cheap for us.

I will suggest to use a factor that limits the possession of gold to a reasonable amount (maybe a few thousands - not hundrets of thousands), so that revivals and buying items are costly again, not inconsiderable. So, this topic has already been a great help for us! Thanks for your support!
I think you summarised it quite well. A simple fix seems to be

A) Decide in advance what you think your characters should be able to afford? Things like lethality (number of revivals), crafting, strongholds. (I use a lethality that in conjunction with doubling the cost of revival (the cast costs the same as the component) should take around 100,000 out of the campaign).
B) Mindful of that overall aim, reduce the scaling of treasure hoards at each next tier by some factor that makes sense to you. RAW has it scaling by an order of magnitude (10x jumps, across each threshold). (I halve it, so 5x instead of 10x, leading to one-eighth the fungible loot at tier 4.) To do this effectively, you need to sum the gold accumulation across the levels you expect to play at.

All you do then is remove the appropriate surplus from hoards you generate.
 
Last edited:



Question: why is having more money than you can spend a problem?

It makes treasure meaningless. Why should the DM spend time rolling up treasure, why should players spend time dividing it, if there's nothing to spend it on?
The (rather long winded) article I linked to above describes it pretty well (though the form is tiresome).
 

lkwpeter

Explorer
It makes treasure meaningless. Why should the DM spend time rolling up treasure, why should players spend time dividing it, if there's nothing to spend it on?
The (rather long winded) article I linked to above describes it pretty well (though the form is tiresome).
Yeah, that's actually the reason, why we started allowing magic consumables. The intention now is to fix the gold income in a way that the players have enough to spend it for a few scrolls or potions per level, but without running the risk of having so much money that they don't have to weigh their decisions.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
So... question. An assassin needs money for their poisons, and a wizard for their spellbook.

Forget magic items for a tic. What else is there to spend money on? Mounts, strongholds, hirelings.... What else is there?
 
Last edited:

lkwpeter

Explorer
As I mentioned, we are currently at the very end of the campaign "Princes of the Apocalypse". Our characters are level 13 and we have dozens of thousands of gold, but we don't know on what to spend our money. The treasure system is broken. Prices are even more broken. Gold is worth nothing, if you can't by anything useful for that. The only way to get rid of gold is, if your DM finds a way to "burn it all for some hypocritical reason" like offering you a Castle for an insane, unplausible amount of gold. If you don't believe me, read Angry GM's article.

In our case, we decided to give gold at least a tiny bit of usage and offer only magic consumables in a very limited amount for purchase. Therefore, the first problem we had to deal with was that there is A LOT of inconsistency between prices. We started using Sane Magic Item Prices to have more realistic prices that depend on the item's power, not its rarity. Though this system is far away from being perfect, it is much more consistent than RAW. Furthermore, I created Faerûn's Vendors - A flexible vendor system for magic consumables to provide a transparent ruling system that can easily be adjusted to fit for the DM's purpose.

But that's only one side of the coin. The other problem is that players accumulate hundrets of thousands of gold. During a 20 level campaign they are supposed to earn over 3.2 million(!!) GP. You don't believe me? Have a look at this article about game math. So, if you want to make buying items not only available, but also interesting, you need to force players to make decisions on what to spend their money. This is the other side of the coin: preventing characters from swimming within an insane amount of money, that allows them to buy anything they want to - regardless of the price. If you lower their treasure, they will buy items with care. And even if they have less coins, they will be satisfied, because their so hard earned money is worth more than ever before!

The questions is, how to distribute a reasonable amount of money to players. The DMG provides dozens of treasure tables for gems, art, items, consumables and, of course, gold. But as I said, the system is broken and therefore useless. Concerning this, I want to quote a passage from the Angry GM's article, I already mentioned:

Angry GM said:
Where D&D does f$&% up is in presenting money treasure as important. Because that’s an outright f$&%ing lie. And it confuses the hell out of poor GMs. And, worse, it forces GMs to do unnecessary work. The thing is, many GMs crack open that DMG and find the chapter on treasure and they try to hand out treasure according to the rules and keep everything balanced because the game seems to suggest they have to. But that’s wasted work because the treasure itself has no value. It isn’t important. It’s paperwork for the sake of paperwork.

Applying rules for treasure distribution that are obviously broken is even worse than applying no rules at all. @Vonklaude posted a treasure table that estimated the average amount of treasure handed to the players while applying the rules of the DMG. I already mentioned that the amount earmed by party during their 20 level career is 3.2 million GP by RAW. Within this thread we talked about adjusting this insane amount by applyng lower multiplicators between the differet tier levels. That would allow the DM to lower the outcome to an amount that better fits his idea of treasure distribution (e.g. the default multiplicator is 10. If you lower it to 5 the characters would only earn ~500.000 GP in their career).

It felt good for a moment, but after I thought about it for a while I asked myself: Why on earth should I ever fix a broken system for treasure distribution that is related to a pricing system that is also broken? The answer was: It makes no sense at all. A pricing system that sells Glue for 50.000+ GP, but a Sentinal Shield for only 100-500 GP is ridiculous. So, fixing the treasure distribution won't solve the problem, because it is related to the pricing system that is also broken.

After all that, I agree to Angry GM that the whole treasure distribution system is a lie and not worth the work. Firstly, if I need to spend so much work to adjust a system, only to match my personal idea of treasure ditribution, I can easily give away treasure by my own system. Secondly, if I already know how much I want to give away to my players, there is no reason to start calculating this amount to solely fit into a table of a broken system.





In conclusion: If you also have problems with treasure distribution, I suggest to do the following:

1.) Become aware of how much treasure you want to distribute for each level. This depends on what you want your players to be able to afford. You also want to ask yourself, if there are some elements to "burn money" like building Strongholds, etc. Don't panic, now that you are using your own distribution, you will always be able to adjust the wealth of your group. In my case, I allow my party to buy a very limited amount of magic consumables. I looked up Sane Magic Item Prices and found out an amount that suits my purpose.

2.) Delete all gemstones and art objects from treasure. If you and your group care as less about that as my group does, don't think about it. Just do it. Gemstones and art objects are only useful to be converted into cash (except reviving diamonds). So, I suggestion to make your DM life easier and don't care for it. Of course, if your players have fun in collecting art for their home base, you might want to go on with it - otherwise don't.

3.) Divide treasure up to several parcels and determine where you want them to be found in the advanture. Consider that you can always add potions and scrolls to your parcels as you want to. If you are running a official WotC campaign, you could also only replace the amount of gold (including gems and art objects) and leave the rest of the treasure as it is. Just do it, as you wish to.




Doing so is much easier than trying to hand out treasure according to the rules, only because you fear to break the game balance. There is no balance. Accept it. You will see that your DM life will become less complicated, because you can forget about those dozens tables that have made your life so hard.

Kind regards!
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top