D&D 5E An alternative to eight hour healing

iserith · Nov 7, 2017

Bawylie said:
Instead of that spell/ritual, how about a zone? An 8 hour rest in a sanctuary can restore all HP, etc. But outside a sanctuary, an 8 hr rest only restores hit dice or something like that. In practice you would control the placement of sanctuaries and therefore be able to adjust to any weird issues.

You could also have sanctuaries in flux. Once used they might need time to regain their mojo. Like a magic fountain that restores you but not more often than once a week. Or a cave that glows in the light of the full moon. Perhaps some sanctuaries are permanent (temples and churches, perhaps hospitals and the like - which is why those things were built there in the first place). And maybe they can be corrupted, so you can get some quests out of them if you want.

But the one big effect they'd get you is the one you seem to want - no 8 hr rest to full as a matter of routine.

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[MENTION=6776133]Bawylie[/MENTION] just wrote a post I wished I had written.

You win this round.

Tony Vargas · Nov 7, 2017

shidaku said:
I think it's important to note that having a cleric, and having a healer are not the same thing.

The Bard, paladin, & druid can all heal, too.

But, when the chips are down, 'not being the healer' is harder for some than others. The pally just plain gets lay on hands, so healing is always there. The Bard, OTOH, might know no healing spells, at all. The Druid and Cleric, though, are prepped casters with healing spells on their lists, so, they can shirk healing duties for as long as they're not needed, but, are only a long rest away from the role of party healer..

. But you can be a battler, buffer or tank cleric just fine with nary a thought to healing.

Sure, for that matter the healing cleric can change his stripes to a degree, too.

Beyond that, the "sleepless cleric" concept strikes me as a bit odd. I mean what, Joe the Cleric just never sleeps because he's casting an 8 hour spell every night, maybe every other night?

Call it a 'vigil..'

iamntbatman · Nov 7, 2017

I think the issue here is that you need to take a step back from the situation and potentially rethink what is actually happening. Hitpoints are an abstraction - someone down to low HP is not necessarily suffering from broken bones and swords through their guts or whatever. Low HP could very well just mean bruised, battered and exhausted from a day spent furiously dodging, blocking and parrying blows. The overnight full heal could just be indicative of recovering from a battle and making whatever minor scrapes more manageable. Even things like broken bones take so long to heal that it wouldn't ever really be viable to work around such injuries barring magical healing, which I guess you could house rule to be necessary if major injuries ever happen. But, during the course of combat, you could be more careful in your description of attacks and wounding effects to make things more able to be dealt with by a good night's sleep.

Horwath · Nov 7, 2017

How about for natural healing.

You do not reagain any HP during long rest.
You regain max HP from your HDs spent during long rest.
You can spend also regained HDs at the end of the long rest at max value.

I.E: 6th level fighter(16 con) starts long rest with 1 HP and 2 HDs left.

at the end of long rest he regains 26 HP from 2 HDs remaning, as his max HPs are 58, he still can regain 31 HP.
He can now spend HDs regained at the end of the long rest(6 in total) at max value(13).
He can spend 2 to be 5 HPs away from max HP or 3 but he loses 8 HPs in over heal. Leaving him with 4(or 3) HDs for remainder of the day.

cthulhu42 · Nov 7, 2017

iserith said:
I think your issue with the standard rules for damage and healing begins with a misunderstanding of the same. See "Describing the Effects of Damage" on page 75 of the Basic Rules. There it tells you that the "broken bones and sword wounds" you mentioned above occur when a character reaches 0 hit points, and maybe not even then ("...it simply knocks you unconscious"). Otherwise, you're taking cuts and bruises between half your hit points and 0 hit points.

So it seems that if you just change the way you're describing injuries on the front end to bring it more in line with the expectation of the rules, you won't have to change the rules for healing on the back end.

This basic post has been reiterated several times in this thread, and believe it or not, I get it. I really do. I've read the section cited here and I understand the concept. I don't particularly like it, but I understand it, and yes, it works.

But let's talk about this from a different angle for a minute. If it's true that hit points basically represent "stamina" or "vigor" or "health" or an amalgam of a nebulous overall measure of physical heartiness, and if damage isn't measured in sword cuts, claw slashes or magical fire, then why are there damage types?

If it's true that we shouldn't even mention a slash or a pierce or a bludgeon until a foe is at 0 hit points, then why is there specifically named slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage? If a foe has resistance to a certain type of damage, but all he's taking until 0 hit points is stamina drain, then what is he resisting from all those hits that take him to zero?

I do honestly appreciate all the feedback, and I'm gratified that no one has come up with ways to manipulate the idea into a game breaker, which is really my main concern. I'm going to give it some more thought. Again, I know it's a solution in search of a problem. The game works fine as is. But, you know, everybody's got a pet peeve, right? I guess the eight hour rest is mine.

CapnZapp · Nov 7, 2017

cthulhu42 said:
After having played 5E for about three years there's many things I love, a few things that annoy me, and one thing that drives me crazy.

The eight hour healing thing.

Look, I know D&D has never been about realism. I've been playing in one form or another for over thirty years. I remember holing up in a dungeon room for days on end, healing a point a day. When 3E came along and suddenly you healed 1 point per level per day we thought that was hot stuff! Sure, it wasn't realistic to think you could heal from broken bones and sword wounds in a few days, but somehow it "felt" realistic enough and that was fine.

But now, with 5E, you take seriously life threatening wounds, take a nice eight hour rest, and boom, you're back to full! And it's killing me!

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they did it, and I love the fact that it keeps the game moving. There's a lot that's GOOD about the eight hour heal. The problem is, it is the one thing in the game that I just can't see happen without my eyes rolling back into my head. I can rationalize everything else in the game that defies logic and realism. I get that the PC's are Heroes. I get that hit points are not meant to represent just how much pure physical damage you can take. I get that... magic. All of that is fine. But I cannot get myself to suspend enough disbelief to make this eight hour heal work for me.

There's got to be a better way.

Before I get into my idea, I'd love if anyone else has had this issue and has resolved it, either through coming up with some kind of reasonable explanation, no matter how tenuous. Also, my idea is in it's infancy and not at all fleshed out. If you can poke holes in it, fine. If you can figure out ways players can abuse it, so much the better.

So please understand that I'm not out to take away the eight hour heal. I love the fact that it keeps the game moving. What I need is a rational or a mechanic that makes it work. So of course I'm looking into something magical.

My idea is a divine spell available to any divine caster, including druids and paladins, etc, that would essentially do the same thing as the eight hour heal, but ONLY for healing. All other mechanics that rely on short or long rests would remain the same. I'm also not looking to cut into those caster's slots, so I'm thinking it would be a cantrip. I might even allow for an extra cantrip at first level just to keep those casters from losing out on another one.

So it might look something like this...

DIVINE RECUPERATION (cleric, druid, paladin, etc)
Cantrip
Casting time: 8 hours
Range: 60' radius
Components: M (holy symbol, etc)
Duration: Instantaneous, concentration

You begin the spell and concentrate on it for eight hours. At the end of that time, all creatures of your choice gain all hit points back to their maximum. In addition, the caster receives the benefits of rest with regards to exhaustion.

That is a quick first draft, and I'm sure there are problems galore with both it, and my idea. But that's what you guys are for, yes? So please, any and all ideas are appreciated.

I have replaced "free hit points" with "free hit dice" and it works well.

That is, instead of getting all hp and half hd, you get no hp and all hd.

This tones down the "lethal injuries turned into fully healed" effect just enough for it to work for me. You can still heal yourself up, you just have fewer Hit Dice the following day.

This satisfies our basic need for the mechanism to acknowledge "yesterday was rough, so I'm less confident today" while not really preventing players from healing up.

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iserith · Nov 7, 2017

cthulhu42 said:
This basic post has been reiterated several times in this thread, and believe it or not, I get it. I really do. I've read the section cited here and I understand the concept. I don't particularly like it, but I understand it, and yes, it works.

But let's talk about this from a different angle for a minute. If it's true that hit points basically represent "stamina" or "vigor" or "health" or an amalgam of a nebulous overall measure of physical heartiness, and if damage isn't measured in sword cuts, claw slashes or magical fire, then why are there damage types?

I imagine it's to augment the tactical aspect of the game in some ways plus a nod to classic D&D.

cthulhu42 said:
If it's true that we shouldn't even mention a slash or a pierce or a bludgeon until a foe is at 0 hit points, then why is there specifically named slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage? If a foe has resistance to a certain type of damage, but all he's taking until 0 hit points is stamina drain, then what is he resisting from all those hits that take him to zero?

The rules say hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. How you describe the damage in any given instance is up to you. But if you describe the damage in a way that causes a disconnect for yourself, I think you're well-advised to rethink how you describe damage.

Nevvur · Nov 7, 2017

I'll readily admit I don't like the standard rapid healing rate, but I'm pretty enthusiastic about avoiding house rules. This isn't a panacea, but one solution is to focus on running episodic adventures book ended with long rests. The long rest healing happens off stage so it doesn't really disrupt verisimilitude.

Another solution is to make the rapid healing unique to the PCs for story reasons. I ran a game that began with the PCs being the sole survivors of a mad wizard's attempts to create a super soldier. The treatment imbued them with superior natural healing and would also function to explain the rapid growth in power experienced by PCs. Meanwhile, the rest of the world healed (and acquired power) at a more "realistic" rate.

Neither type of solution may work well for your game, but I thought they may be useful examples of a different way to approach the problem.

The Crimson Binome · Nov 7, 2017

iamntbatman said:
I think the issue here is that you need to take a step back from the situation and potentially rethink what is actually happening. Hitpoints are an abstraction - someone down to low HP is not necessarily suffering from broken bones and swords through their guts or whatever. Low HP could very well just mean bruised, battered and exhausted from a day spent furiously dodging, blocking and parrying blows.

That's the thing. HP damage isn't necessarily any serious physical injury, and the rules work well for as long as they represent battering and bruising; but sometimes it is serious physical injury, and the rules don't work very well to address that situation.

If you're fighting on the back of a roc, and it throws you off, then you may well suffer ~70 points of damage from impacting the ground. That's not just something you should be able to sleep off in an hour. Likewise, each round spent in the Tarrasque's stomach does 56 acid damage - more than sufficient to dissolve a warhorse within six seconds - and yet anyone who survives that will be good as new after a nap.

There's just no way to reconcile everything that hit points are supposed to represent.

cthulhu42 · Nov 7, 2017

iserith said:
I imagine it's to augment the tactical aspect of the game in some ways plus a nod to classic D&D.

The rules say hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. How you describe the damage in any given instance is up to you. But if you describe the damage in a way that causes a disconnect for yourself, I think you're well-advised to rethink how you describe damage.

But why wouldn't you describe a slashing blow from a slashing weapon, or piercing damage from a creature's teeth that does piercing damage?