Cultural appropriation in gaming

Most cries of cultural appropriation are just PC BS coming from people who get offended by everything and are just looking for attention. That said, there are some legitimate situations where cultural appropriation is real, though it is more cultural insensitivity. Wearing or using something from another culture that even someone from that culture would not be allowed to use except is special circumstances is the big one. The example I think of each time for this is whenever someone not qualified to wear a Native American war bonnet, or chief's bonnet, goes running around in one for some photo shoot or for Halloween, or for whatever. Or people who are not Hindu putting the dot on their forehead because they think it looks "cool". That is my main rule for this stuff: if it is something that is restricted to certain people in the culture it belongs to, and you do not qualify for it, then you should not be doing it.

Of course, that is all for real world stuff. For a role-playing game, you just have to try to be respectful of the culture you are basing something on. You also need to be truthful about those cultures, even if the truth hurts. For example, African tribes captured members of rival tribes and sold them to the European slave traders. If you use that in your fantasy world and someone is offended by it, then tough luck for them because you are using the truth and not slandering a real culture.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Well, there's the rub. Is it a player at the table sitting in judgment on behalf of someone else (or some other group) or for himself? Are his judgments well- or ill-informed, based on good information or bad information? Are the judgments generally in line with a broader community or are they outliers?
The OP doesn't reallly let me answer any of those questions.

The issue of cultural appropriation is (in my view) complex. Some of the concerns are about crowding out public space and establishing or perpetuating stereotypes. Among friends in a social RPG session, these concerns play out differently from how they might in (say) a music video or novel or film.

I've GMed games in which white players play non-white characters; and in which people whose cultural heritage is essentially European play characters whose heritage (allowing for the fantasy context) is non-European. (On these boards I've often posted about Oriental Adventures games I've run.) I don't think that such campaigns and characters are per se racist. But as came out in the thread about ToA, lazy or stereotyped characterisations are something to watch out for.

I'm certainly not trying to tell [MENTION=6801401]HawaiiSteveO[/MENTION] how to run a game or an NPC. That's up to him (?) and his group.

Throwing around the most demeaning and inflammatory insult available, is not what friends (or "friends"?) do to each other.
Huh?
 

pemerton

Legend
when did people get so sensitive
I think framing the issue as "sensitivity" can lead our thinking in the wrong direction.

Victims of stereotyping, racial slurs, etc have always cared about it.

What may have changed is a greater degree of public assertiveness in response to those things; and this is changing the way other people respond to (what they see as) stereotyping and the like.

I don't know you or your group, and so can't give you any serious advice - all I can say is that my own approach might be to try and work out what your player responded to, rather than try and work out why your player is "sensitive".
 

Celebrim

Legend
As long as I'm not intentionally rude or insulting people should just have fun and roll with it. If I do something on purpose that I know is going to irritate another person I'm just being a jerk!

I think that is fundamentally the only sound advice one can give. Don't be a jerk. Don't be intentionally malicious. If you are drawing from real cultures, inspect your own attitude and make sure your presentation isn't coming from some inner belief of racial essentialism or attitude of racial superiority.

(Not that this is easy. Frankly I consider most cries of 'cultural appropriation' to come from a place of racism, racialism, racial essentialism, belittlement, disrespect and no small amount of racial hatred, but I also recognize that most people crying 'cultural appropriation' - and certainly those taking up the banner to virtue signal - aren't really aware just how destructive their own beliefs or how condescending their own attitudes actually are. If they did, I think most would not push this crap.)

All that said, this is a two way street. Just as it is incumbent on you to not be a jerk, it's incumbent on others not to act out of a principle of least charity, self-righteousness, cowardice, passive aggression and so forth. There is nothing less jerky about any of that sort of behavior than there is about the insensitive depiction of a character that might support or bolster a racialist view of the world.

A very good example for me of just how this sort of outrage goes wrong was a recent event in Portland (or some such sort of place) where a famous conductor and a famous musician were backstage making fun of each other's accents and culture. They were quite content to do so, because each knew the other to be their friend, and they felt safe with the other. Let's not beat around the bush, they were actually insulting each other and making fun of each other, as good friends often do. But the conductor happened to be white, and the musician happened to be black, and so the conductor was fired - not because the musician was offended and not because someone overheard the jokes out of context and thought the black musician persecuted. Indeed, not even because some other black musician heard the jokes out of context and thought that perhaps the conductor was creating an unsafe and discriminatory work environment and was offended. No, the conductor got fired because a white stranger that knew neither man thought the conversation inappropriate.

Now, the jerk in this story is not the white conductor making fun of a black man's accent, nor the black musician making fun of a white man's accent, but the moral-busybody and tattle-tell signaling her virtue in the most cowardly of manners. In a good and just world, it would be the woman who was subject to opprobrium, and not two friends that by their manners had transcended any racial ill-will to the point they could make a mockery of it. It was she, and not they, that should have known better.
 

HawaiiSteveO

Blistering Barnacles!
I think framing the issue as "sensitivity" can lead our thinking in the wrong direction.

Victims of stereotyping, racial slurs, etc have always cared about it.

What may have changed is a greater degree of public assertiveness in response to those things; and this is changing the way other people respond to (what they see as) stereotyping and the like.

I don't know you or your group, and so can't give you any serious advice - all I can say is that my own approach might be to try and work out what your player responded to, rather than try and work out why your player is "sensitive".

Let me rephrase, remove 'sensitive' and replace with 'scared to talk to each other'!

In any case, this has been a really interesting thread to read, although it's become the eppy-tome of hyper-bowl (Pathfinder-y?) as far as I am concerned.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Let me rephrase, remove 'sensitive' and replace with 'scared to talk to each other'!

In any case, this has been a really interesting thread to read, although it's become the eppy-tome of hyper-bowl (Pathfinder-y?) as far as I am concerned.

Yeah don't worry too much. Just be careful who you do and say things around. You don't seem to be mean about it, so I don't see an actual problem. Just be careful about who do you game with, as some people just love to have a reason "to eat people alive" to ruin people's lives in order to feel superior.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Taking all that into consideration, when / where / how did dwarves become Scots? Gahhhh!! :mad:
MY Dwarven characters have Scandinavian names.
Because Norwegian / Swedish / Danish contributed to the development of the English language, but don't sound just like it. And because I want a Dwarf character in a Human-dominant culture to sound like he didn't grow up around here, but also doesn't sound like he comes from very very far away.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Let me rephrase, remove 'sensitive' and replace with 'scared to talk to each other'!

In any case, this has been a really interesting thread to read, although it's become the eppy-tome of hyper-bowl (Pathfinder-y?) as far as I am concerned.

You've kind of hit the nail on the head; people are scared to talk about stuff like this because the public conversation has largely been dominated by on both sides by vitriol and hyperbole. On the one hand you've got a class of aggrieved red-pill white dudes spouting off about "PC" and "people looking to be offended" like they've given any kind of thought to how others born in different circumstances might experience things differently, and they basically have no clue what the hell they're talking about. On the other hand you've got a class of folks with legitimate grievances (and, more often than not, their allies) who have nonetheless embarked on a scorched-earth campaign against anyone they've deemed to not be sufficiently on their team. Now that doesn't describe everybody on each side, but it definitely describes the loudest voices. And I've certainly been guilty of that latter part myself, even very recently, and it's beginning to sink for me in how tragically destructive that path is.

I'm certainly not interested in tone policing anybody with a legitimate cause for anger, frustration and hurt. There's certainly been plenty of jerks in this thread already who have deigned fit to tell others how they should and should not feel or react to others appropriating their culture. And I certainly don't believe that there's some legitimate middle ground that lies in the absolute center of the two positions; one side is more or less in the right and the other is very much in the wrong. Granted, I personally feel that cultural appropriation, as an issue, is both more and less grey then has been presented by various individuals in this thread. There's not really lot of consensus on what is or is not appropriate, and to what extent good intentions excuse flawed execution.

I can only speak from my own side in this fight, but if the problem is a lack of compassion and empathy on the other side, the response to it cannot be more of the same. Especially when there are a lot of reasonable people who might have much of value to impart to the conversation, but who are rightfully afraid of getting caught in the crossfire.
 
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innerdude

Legend
Full disclosure: I am a white, American male.

It is never my intent to offend anyone of a different culture, race, or nationality. I work for global, multinational corporation. A good 75% of the people I work with daily are not United States citizens, whose first language is not English. On a given day, I'll hear conversations in Spanish, Hindi, Arabic, Portuguese, and Russian, and that's just on a single floor of our office building.

Now, does my limited exposure to people of differing nationalities somehow give me insight into fully appreciating their culture? Of course not. Do I inevitably have internal biases based on my cultural upbringing? Yes. Is it ever a good idea to engage in disparaging stereotypes and broad generalizations about a group or culture? Not generally.

But the whole idea of "cultural appropriation," as has been generally put forth in public discourse, is in my mind exceptionally unhelpful. As a term it is highly nebulous. No one's exactly sure what it even means, other than, "You should be respectful of other people, regardless of nationality, race and culture."

Well, DUH!

But in public discourse the entire concept is a moving goal post. Does it mean never referencing or incorporating any aspect of an alternative culture, ever? Does it mean not using bits and pieces of a culture out of context? Can you not even represent a different culture in fiction, even if it has historically ceased to exist, because people who are alive now may have some resemblance to the past culture? No one knows, and as a result, anyone can claim "cultural appropriation" at any time, and all of us are simply supposed to accept it at face value and move heaven and earth to make sure they're no longer offended. In this kind of environment, it's impossible to have any kind of successful discourse at all.

Here's the thing --- cultures exist because we live in a real world, where groups of humans have banded together throughout all of history to promote common values, survival, art, and community. What possible value is there in denying ANYONE the ability to research, experience, explore, and evaluate aspects of a culture, whether our own or someone else's? If you don't belong to a culture natively, these explorations are the only possible way to come to an appreciation of a foreign culture in the first place, whether that be through immersion, research, or exploratory fiction. How else are we to come to any understanding at all?

Consider the case of Monte Cook Games, who went well, well, well outside of the way to have a respectful conversation around an issue of possible cultural appropriation in The Strange. Yet even after trying to hold productive discourse about their product and its subject matter, to hear differing voices, and to consider changing the content of The Strange if needed, it still wasn't enough for some detractors. At that point, the problem was no longer with Monte Cook Games.

In my view it's intellectually dishonest to claim that no one should ever be able to experience a non-native culture through second-hand activity, because "appropriation." These things can absolutely be done with an eye to respect and understanding. Furthermore, cultures are a real part of our shared human history. Using a component, a character, a motif, a symbol, something based on an outside culture in an RPG should in NO WAY be seen as a bad thing, if the intent is to do honest exploration and approach the subject matter with dignity. If you're trying to accurately represent a certain time and place in your RPG, it's entirely within our right as GM's to represent certain cultures, because at one point in the real world, there were actual people who banded together to form exactly that kind of society.

Now in the case of the OP, if the subject of "appropriation" was broached by an individual within my group because they weren't comfortable, I'd want to talk with them about it directly, because as GM, my goal is for everyone to have fun, and to have fun in an environment where they feel valued, safe, and appreciated. If those things aren't happening, then that's a cause for concern. I'd discuss with them why they were uncomfortable, whether they felt my goals for including the culture in gameplay were sound and generally done with an eye to respect. And if at a certain point the player continued express their discomfort, I would then be faced with either changing the campaign or politely suggesting to the player that the group may not suit them.

Now, on that note --- My co-workers from India have been heating up their curry in the breakroom, and damn if it doesn't smell good. Maybe I'll ask one of them if I can "culturally appropriate" some of it for lunch.
 

pemerton

Legend
the whole idea of "cultural appropriation," as has been generally put forth in public discourse, is in my mind exceptionally unhelpful. As a term it is highly nebulous. No one's exactly sure what it even means, other than, "You should be respectful of other people, regardless of nationality, race and culture."

<snip>

But in public discourse the entire concept is a moving goal post. Does it mean never referencing or incorporating any aspect of an alternative culture, ever? Does it mean not using bits and pieces of a culture out of context? Can you not even represent a different culture in fiction, even if it has historically ceased to exist, because people who are alive now may have some resemblance to the past culture? No one knows, and as a result, anyone can claim "cultural appropriation" at any time, and all of us are simply supposed to accept it at face value and move heaven and earth to make sure they're no longer offended. In this kind of environment, it's impossible to have any kind of successful discourse at all.

Here's the thing --- cultures exist because we live in a real world, where groups of humans have banded together throughout all of history to promote common values, survival, art, and community. What possible value is there in denying ANYONE the ability to research, experience, explore, and evaluate aspects of a culture, whether our own or someone else's? If you don't belong to a culture natively, these explorations are the only possible way to come to an appreciation of a foreign culture in the first place, whether that be through immersion, research, or exploratory fiction. How else are we to come to any understanding at all?

<snip>

In my view it's intellectually dishonest to claim that no one should ever be able to experience a non-native culture through second-hand activity, because "appropriation." These things can absolutely be done with an eye to respect and understanding. Furthermore, cultures are a real part of our shared human history. Using a component, a character, a motif, a symbol, something based on an outside culture in an RPG should in NO WAY be seen as a bad thing, if the intent is to do honest exploration and approach the subject matter with dignity. If you're trying to accurately represent a certain time and place in your RPG, it's entirely within our right as GM's to represent certain cultures, because at one point in the real world, there were actual people who banded together to form exactly that kind of society.
Picasso is famous for his masks. Who conceived of and created the masks that Picasso copied and drew inspiration from?

Those who express concern about "cultural appropriation" are not sayng that "no one should ever be able to experience a non-native culture through second-hand activity". They are trying to create a public space, in relation to cultural activity, in wich second-hand experience does not crowd out first-hand experience.

If a result of this is that white, American males (among others) find themselves limiting the palette with which they express themselves - well, that self-restraint is part of the outcome intended by those who express concern about cultural appropriation. This is not all that is going on in concerns about "cultural appropriation", especially when such concerns overlap with concerns about stereotyping or racism more generally. But it is an important part of it.

How those engaged in private, social activities like RPGing in someone's loungeroom should incorporate these ideas and concerns into their non-public cultural activity is obviously up to them. The issue about "crowding out" doesn't arise in quite the same way, although they might still be felt to arise obliquely eg in an Oriental Adventures game, whose "version"/representation of Chinese or Japanese culture and history does a group rely upon to firm its own conception of the gameworld?

As far as the OP is concerned, I'm in no position to counsel on what happened in that session. But I don't think it adds anything to our understanding to assert that a GM has a right to represent this or that. Who would such a right be held against? Who would be under any corresponding duty? Obviously the GM has the ability and social position - within the context of an RPGing session - to represent stuff as part of the gameworld. The question is about how that ability should be used.
 

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