D&D 5E Would you use Paladin "smite" spells if they were not concentration?

Thurmas said:

But you did like some of it! I must be on to something then!

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I think the only thing was line 1.

I feel the "easy fix" would be to house rule that they do not use concentration, but rule that only one smite spell instance per round (i.e. you can smite as a normal class feature, or cast wrathful smite, but not both in the same round). I also feel that the smite feature itself should really be limited to once a round as well.

Yes, this still allows them to stack multiple smite effects (wrath one round, blindin smite the next, regular feature the 3rd round, etc.), and still allows for nova-ing a fight or fishing for smite crits, but any caster can choose to nova if they wish, and in reality paladins get so few spells that royally murdering one target here or there isn't a huge deal in the long run. Even if said target is a BBEG (design better encounters), it still leaves them out of spells for later. I handle a novice paladin the same way I handle a nova-ing spell caster or careless rogue: have the remaining enemies focus fire on the dude that just killed their boss, and throw enough difficult encounters at the party to make them wish they hadn't spent all their spells in one fight.

That all said, from my personal experience as a paladin player and from having multiple in my games, we tend to not see these spells pop up much. My current paladin loves the idea of them and praises them highly, yet I've never seem him use them once in favor of base damage increase in a year or so he's been playing. I myself typically picked one great buff spell (bless, aura of vitality, haste, spirit guardians, etc) and them used the rest of my spell slots for smiting or healing.

It should also be notes a few of our paladins were choosing not to use spells not for mechanical reasons, but for roleplaying ones: we liked the idea of a noble knight and specifically wanted the auras, smite features, and channel divinity, but did NOT view our character as a "spellcaster". The new smite feature is functional in allowing this sort of character to be viable, in much the same way a ranger can take less flashy spells and play themselves off as less of a caster (i.e. Aragorn).

I like the smite Spells more than I like the Smite feature; I get more than just +dmg. Hitting somebody and scaring him off ("Can he trigger a panic among his friends?") is more fun than pounding him into a splatter on the pavement.

My Tiamat paladin spent more spell slots on Moonbeam than on smiting anything.

I would use them now when they do have concentration. As is though, I can't seem to really get into playing a paladin so it hasn't really come up.

Thurmas said:

It's been mentioned at least part already, but I would really enjoy seeing these changes:

1. The smite spells do not require concentration.
2. They are cast as a reaction when you hit with an attack.
3. Remove the class ability of divine smite (keep the bonus 1d8 damage at 11).
4. Improve the smite spells a little bit, by making damage the same. Level 1 Smite spell 2d8, Level 2 Smite spell 3d8, etc. They scale upward per spell slot level at +1d8 per slot.
5. Each smite spell has an effect, but still doesn't require concentration. Something set on fire should just keep burning, not require concentration. Continuing effects just keep happening, but allow a save at the end of each turn to end it. The effects also scale per spell slot spent if appropriate. Just for example, make spells like this, with a couple new ones added to keep things interesting!

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I like the basic idea, but there's one thing that doesn't really sit well with me.

On your second point, it's weird that you're reacting to yourself. It's good that this limits you to one spell slot per round, and it doesn't take concentration, but you could just make it a bonus action to cast, and have it trigger automatically on your next hit (as long as that occurs before the end of your next turn).

Also, I'm really hoping that Searing Smite ends on something other than a Concentration save. What's the normal save against being on fire? Dexterity?

Saelorn said:

I like the basic idea, but there's one thing that doesn't really sit well with me.

On your second point, it's weird that you're reacting to yourself. It's good that this limits you to one spell slot per round, and it doesn't take concentration, but you could just make it a bonus action to cast, and have it trigger automatically on your next hit (as long as that occurs before the end of your next turn).

Also, I'm really hoping that Searing Smite ends on something other than a Concentration save. What's the normal save against being on fire? Dexterity?

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My apologies. Typo that is supposed to say constitution save. I believe that's what the normal spell uses.

I chose reaction over bonus action because it is more similar to the normal divine smite ability. I think taking the paladin's bonus action away is too great of a change and nerf, when the regular divine smite uses no action of any kind.

I actually wish there was a way to cast them with no bonus action or reaction required, and just limit it to one per turn, but I don't think there is a spell model for that.

Thurmas said:

I chose reaction over bonus action because it is more similar to the normal divine smite ability. I think taking the paladin's bonus action away is too great of a change and nerf, when the regular divine smite uses no action of any kind.

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That assumes you want to bring the spells more into line with the class feature, rather than the other way around.

Bonus actions are literally not even an action. It's a bonus. If you don't have something granting you a bonus action, then you act normally, and you have no reason to even consider the limit of one bonus. (At least, that's the idea). Meanwhile, your reaction is actually a thing that you might need, if you want to ready an action or prevent enemies from running away.

But either way of doing it would still be a huge improvement over the broken, disjointed system that's currently in place.

smbakeresq said:

Your can’t lose concentration between your bonus action and action, nothing can happen to force a concentration check.

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Sure you can. Anything that does damage. There are a number of reactions from foes that can do that.

Plus if you miss you need to keep ti longer, potentially until after you move (more reactions for damage or a hazard) or worse into another round.

But the bigger problem is that casting that bonus action spell will interrupt the concentration on anything else you have going because you can only have one.

The only paladin I played had polearm mastery, so my bonus action was usually spoken for already. That's something - the smite spells work better for characters who don't use bonus actions already.

Concentration is tough - it is a major problem because is interrupts other spells. But on the flip side some of the riders on the smites like Fear would be unbalanced vs. other 5e condition-inflictors if they didn't have concentration on them.

Bonus action, single attack per round, no ability to save for crits like divine smites - there's a lot that makes them meh. On the other hand some of them have really nice riders.

You guys do realize if you cast this spell and miss you hold concentration on it, so you can use it on an OA right? Say if your Bard friend knows you have this on tap so he casts dissonant whispers, provoking an OA so you can add in a Smite spell.

I have used the Smite spells and I can’t really remember losing one to failing a concentration check.

Personally I think you could rework Divine Smite so that instead of flat dice you could get one of the Smite spell effects that would work


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