D&D 5E Seeking Help/Critique on a Setting

steeldragons said:

*So much awesome, welcome commentary*

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Thank you so much for all of this!

On History: Very helpful advice in general. Do you think this is what I should be focusing on Right Now, or is this something that can come more or less as I go along? Personally, my biggest history-related concern is figuring out just who it was the Ur-Elves fought who ended up creating the Netherstorm - in fact, I think that's actually one of the cosmological aspects of the setting that I need to try and flesh out.

On Region Names: These are actually all placeholder names, because I really, really suck at naming places. I'd love to rename "Daggerland" to something else because, beyond the "Sword Coast rip-off" thing, it just sounds a little silly. Yes, I know D&D realm-names have a tradition of being silly - hence why we have countries named "Rich Mouse" or "Madness" - but still.

On Regional Sub-Manuals: Yeah, I actually do want to make these at some point. But yes, I figured that the "primary" regions would be the Known World first, followed by the Dark Continent and then the Isle of Catastrophe.

On the Isle of Catastrophe: It's not entirely that bad, but it's definitely a pretty close vision. Think of it as a mash up of the Mournland, Mad Max and Fallout, and you got the basic gist of it. There's other races than ratfolk living here too, but it's ratfolk that dominate the land.

On the Dark Continent: I'm rather pleased with it myself! Even in this rudimentary state, it just has so much potential. Incidentally, arcanaloths became a unique fiendish race called Ravaasta not directly connected to demons or devils, ala succubi in 5e, and I was actually seeing the rulers of the "Gravedogs Empire" (for lack of a better placeholder name) as being mortals - rip-offs of Mystara's Hutaakan race, just twisted to a darker field of worship.

On Humanocentrism: I actually envision this as a very.... heterogenous(?) setting: any humanoid race should have some level of PC-friendliness. If you want to run an all-ratfolk campaign where you are guerilla warriors fighting against the hobgoblin tyranny, or an all-gnoll campaign where you either work for the hutaakans, oppose them, or both, or an all-hobgoblin campaign on either side of the (what's the term for Rule By Military Leaders?), then you should be able to do just that. Or you can be a ragtag band of misfits adventuring wherever the hell you please. So, non-humans have just as much weight and pull in this setting as humans - I wanted to avoid the pitfall of "dozens of unique human cultures, one or two monolithic cultures per demihuman race".

On My Preferred Race: Honestly, I'm having a really hard time deciding which one I want to focus on at the moment, hence why I asked. In fact, I find several of the non-humans, at the moment, more fascinating (or troublesome to envision) than the humans - Sun Elves, Tek Gnomes, Wild Gnomes, Haffuns, "Gravedogs", Tondi, all of these are calling to me so much I can't choose between them.

On The Inner World: Thanks, that advice makes a lot of sense! With that said, you're right, it makes plenty of sense to include it and just leave it abstract until the Known World is fleshed out. That also means I can perhaps bring in the Mu Peninsula, the magic-devastated tropical realm that was once home to a mighty magocratic empire - this might even be home to another Sun Elf queendom, similar to yet distinct from the Sun Elf cultures of the Dark Continent.

steeldragons gave much more thorough and useful advice than I would have. I'd especially echo the sentiment to focus on elements that are in closest proximity to where your game will likely start. I wouldn't spend time on far off places or far off history until your players have an opportunity to interact with them.

One element I would work on, is to give the major movers in the world (organizations, nations, etc.) motivations and the means they use to advance their goals. I would keep it short and sweet--one or two sentences at most. And since each region had multiple races inhabiting them, I would either keep it very high level (like at the nation level) or focus on a specific region if you're going to delve into the motivations of each group within the region. Giving the movers motivations will help you figure out how they all fit together in the world and interact with each other and will give your players seeds for where they want to be in the world.

That said, I think you a good foundation and an interesting setting on your hands. With a little collaboration from your unexisting players, I think you could run a solid game at this point.

QuietBrowser said:

Thank you so much for all of this!

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You're quite welcome.

On My Preferred Race: Honestly, I'm having a really hard time deciding which one I want to focus on at the moment, hence why I asked. In fact, I find several of the non-humans, at the moment, more fascinating (or troublesome to envision) than the humans - Sun Elves, Tek Gnomes, Wild Gnomes, Haffuns, "Gravedogs", Tondi, all of these are calling to me so much I can't choose between them.

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Well, in the face of that sort of option paralysis, I find just picking one and going with it works. Just pick one. Work on it til you're happy with it/think it's fleshed out enough. Pick another one. They aren't "going" anywhere. They're all in your head. Nothing's going to happen to one while you're working on another. So, I say, just pick one to start with and do it.

From your initial readout I don't know that there's tons for you to work on, really. Most of them have been suitably described.

I mean, you already described the Tek Gnomes as competent Dragonlance Tinkers. Done. Everyone gets it.

The Sun Elves, barbarian amazons who reproduce alchemically. Done. Everyone can imagine what an amazonian elf barbarian called "Sun elves" looks like. I'm guessing very tanned skin, nice pale to honey blond hair (maybe a few platinum/bleached white blond) and, I personally would probably go for amber and golden-hazel eyes with rarities of a golden green (typically found only among the royalty/nobility/chieftess families) and taller on average than an average height human male. But this is your world make'em look however you want.

The rabbit people, Haffuns, are anthropomorphic bunny agrarians. Kinda done there too. So, other than "Are they true anthropomorphs -e.g. basically humans with rabbit heads and maybe rabbit-esque "hind" legs as their legs or are they more Narnia-type actual large/giant (3-4' tall?) rabbits who walk on their hind legs, speak and have usable hand-paws. Either way, we know they live in farming and ranching communities, a la American pioneer "homesteads." Obviously, those communities are called "Warrens" and they have Watership Downy kinds of names.

The various monstrous "semi-humans" of Gloomland seem fairly straightforward. Dhampirs and tieflings. Check. Got it.

So I'm not sure what parts of the races you are looking to expand upon or feel you don't have "enough" details...or were you meaning in a game mechanics/preferred classes and 5e racial features kind of way?

Seems to me, as I said in my previous post, if you're not interested in fleshing out the humans of different lands, the different appearances, cultures, and specialties your various types of "Wild Gnomes" would be a good place to start. That's where I'd start anyway.

But, like I said, they're not going anywhere. Just pick one and throw out some ideas.

Wednesday Boy said:

One element I would work on, is to give the major movers in the world (organizations, nations, etc.) motivations and the means they use to advance their goals. I would keep it short and sweet--one or two sentences at most. And since each region had multiple races inhabiting them, I would either keep it very high level (like at the nation level) or focus on a specific region if you're going to delve into the motivations of each group within the region. Giving the movers motivations will help you figure out how they all fit together in the world and interact with each other and will give your players seeds for where they want to be in the world.

That said, I think you a good foundation and an interesting setting on your hands. With a little collaboration from your unexisting players, I think you could run a solid game at this point.

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Hmm... thanks, yes, that definitely makes sense. I'll give it some thought and post it when I can.

And thank you so much for saying that this setting sounds interesting.

steeldragons said:

Well, in the face of that sort of option paralysis, I find just picking one and going with it works. Just pick one. Work on it til you're happy with it/think it's fleshed out enough. Pick another one. They aren't "going" anywhere. They're all in your head. Nothing's going to happen to one while you're working on another. So, I say, just pick one to start with and do it.

From your initial readout I don't know that there's tons for you to work on, really. Most of them have been suitably described. So I'm not sure what parts of the races you are looking to expand upon or feel you don't have "enough" details...or were you meaning in a game mechanics/preferred classes and 5e racial features kind of way?

Seems to me, as I said in my previous post, if you're not interested in fleshing out the humans of different lands, the different appearances, cultures, and specialties your various types of "Wild Gnomes" would be a good place to start. That's where I'd start anyway.

But, like I said, they're not going anywhere. Just pick one and throw out some ideas.

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Basically, my big goal for this setting is to write it up in the form of a gazetteer sourcebook - the equivalent of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide; something a DM or player could use to basically take this setting and run it for themselves if they liked it.

For that, I need to expand upon each racial concept. I need to give some kind of real presentation of who they are; how they live, what they do, how they govern themselves, what their typical personalities are like. Does that make sense?

Incidentally, the haffuns are "true" anthropomorphs. I'm undecided if they should or shouldn't be Small, like the halflings whose niche they are effectively filling.

But... you're right, I really need to just pick a race and start fleshing out. Since they're a "core race", and live in the Known World, Gnomes sound like a good idea. I figure I should post them in a separate post, though, for greater clarity - make sense as a future rule for this thread?

Alright, let's talk Gnomes. Below are listed my major questions about the race(s) at this time, and what facts I have established, cliff-notes style.

Current Questions:

• Gnome appearance; what should I make them look like? Personally, I like both the "miniature elf" aspect of 4e's Feywild Gnomes and the animesque aesthetics of PF's Golarion Gnomes. Maybe meld the two aspects?
• In the Wicked Fantasy setting, gnomes have thrived because of the sheer fecundity of the race - staying healthy and fertile up until the final year of their lifespan, female gnomes average 30 to 50 children. I plan on stealing this aspect for Wild Gnomes, but does it make sense to have it for the Cog/Tek Gnomes too?
• Just what regional variants should I give the Wild Gnome race? I don't want to make subspecies that're too niche, because I remember how pathetic the Wavecrest Gnomes were in comparison to River Gnomes: both were water-dwelling gnome subraces, but only River Gnomes had a swim speed and enhanced breathholding! Wavecrests could just talk to seabirds and cast Know Direction 1/day. My current, tentative list is Mountain, Water, Forest, Grasslands and Swamp, based on the terrains of the Known World - I'm worried I'm missing some "native" terrain types, and I do want to leave room for more "exotic" Wild Gnomes, such as Jungle, Desert, Arctic, maybe even Sea if that can be made different to a regular Water Gnome.
• Just what should I call the "sciencey" gnome race? Cog Gnome or Tek Gnome - which sounds better?

Universal Gnome Facts:

• All Gnomes are descended from the Ur-Elf Empire, which conquered much of the Quietum in a distant age.
• It's unknown if gnomes were willing allies or slaves of the elves during these ancient days.
• When the Netherstorm erupted, the trauma of breaking their spiritual link to the Feywild and the birthing pangs of rebinding themselves to the Quietum effectively erased all gnomish history of their ancestry; no gnome culture today has anything more than, at most, vague stories of life in the Feywild. Truly, their origins can be said to begin with the Netherstorm.
• The Great Sundering refers to how the gnomes as a whole found salvation through one of two different routes. Those who focused on the intricacy of wizardly magic (in comparison to their original sorcerous magic) bound themselves to the estoricism and scholastic nature of arcane magic, becoming the first Tek Gnomes. Those who sought solace from the spiritual energies of the wilderness became the first Wild Gnomes.
• Relationships between the two branches of the gnome tree are... strained. Each regards the other with a certain level of condescension.

Cog/Tek Gnome Facts:

• "Science" is the driving focus of Cog Gnome ideology and society. Every Cog Gnome does at least a little tinkering and studying, and invention is seen as a worthwhile goal in its own right.
• Cog Gnome philosophy about inventions boils down to a single aporphism: "Function honors the soul, Form honors the heart". The driving goal with technology is to improve upon that which came before; and "improvement" is defined as "functions more efficiently and simply than before". There's none of that "small, simple machines are made by small, simple minds" rubbish here. However, once the core of the machine is functioning properly and reliably, its exterior is always decorated as ornately as possible, to honor the spirit of the machine within. Baroque designs come natural to Cog Gnomes; barrels shaped like flowers or faces, intricate calligraphy etchings, polished metal and stained wood... their works may not have all of the unnecessary bells and whistles of Tinker Gnome devices, but it's still as artistic as possible. Sometimes to the point of impeding function, though that is frowned upon.
• Officially, Cog Gnome society can be described as a "luminocracy"; a meritocracy where "merit" is synonymous with education and inventive talent. The smartest are expected to lead.
• In practice, society mostly revolves around the efforts of the Great Guilds; advanced scientific colleges that each focus on a particular field of scientific study. The eight Guilds are the Guild of Discovery (Apokalypsi), the Guild of Independence (Automata), the Guild of Control (Epikrato), the Guild of Restoration (Exelixi), the Guild of Destruction (Katastrofi), the Guild of Transformation (Metaptropi), the Guild of Protection (Prostasia) and the Guild of Travel (Skafoi). Each Great Guild is an independent field, but the leaders of the guilds work together as a democratic council for the greater good of the Cog Gnome race. In theory. Yes, these are named after and inspired by the Axioms of Genius: The Transgression.
• All Cog Gnomes belong to at least one of the Great Guilds, simply because they're synonymous with certain fields of employment - Exelixi gnomes are involved in agricultural and medical fields, Automata gnomes in physical creation, Katastrofi in the military, etc. It is, however, possible to belong to multiple guilds by joining the so-called "Dabbler's Guild". Such Cog Gnomes cannot advance to the highest of the internal ranks of the Great Guilds - issues of loyalty. However, only a Dabbler gnome can hold the position of "The Outcast King", a democratically elected Dabbler who holds tie-breaking power over the Council of Guilds, and often greater power than that.

Wild Gnome Facts:

• Wild Gnome culture and even physiology are heavily shaped by their territory of choice.
• Though their bond to nature is similar to that seen in dryads and their kin, gnomes are not as intensely bound; they can leave their native territories just fine and, in fact, there are many wild gnome adventurers.
• Wild gnome subspecies are actually not an inherent property of their being; a wild gnome becomes a regional gnome based on which region it spends its formative years living in.
• In fact, this adaptability is still inherent to Tek Gnomes as well; a Tek Gnome baby reared by Wild Gnomes will grow up to be a Wild Gnome, and vice versa.
• This breeds a certain level of kinship that helps keep all Wild Gnomes communicating with each other; clan lines can and often do sprawl across multiple territories.
• Though their closeness to nature breeds a natural protectiveness of it, wild gnomes are neither vegetarians nor pacifists; nature red in tooth and claw is their underlying philosophy.
• Whilst wild gnomes do not forge metal on their own, instead working with wood, stone and bone, they do recognize its potential and readily trade for metal goods. Some wild gnomes will even trade for guns, although that is a more contentious subject on a clan-based level.
• Wild gnome society revolves around extended family groups - clans - and tribes based on multiple clans united by marriage and lineage.

Cog gnomes if you want to emphasize the Clockwork aspect of their technology.
Tek gnomes if you want to emphasize the more Science Fiction "techno-sorcerous" aspects.

That's my 2 cents.

QuietBrowser said:

Alright, let's talk Gnomes. Below are listed my major questions about the race(s) at this time, and what facts I have established, cliff-notes style.

Current Questions:

• Gnome appearance; what should I make them look like? Personally, I like both the "miniature elf" aspect of 4e's Feywild Gnomes and the animesque aesthetics of PF's Golarion Gnomes. Maybe meld the two aspects?

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• 
  
  Given that you have two distinct peoples I see no reason you couldn't use both. I would think, based on their cultural differences that it would be fairly easy to discern one type from the other anyway...among anyone who knows anything about gnomes which, I presume, most of this people on this world would. I'd probably go for "industrious engineering miniature elf" type gnomes and the more wild looking, brightly colored, anime-ish PF gnomes for the Wild. But you could easily meld the two together to make them your own.
  
  

  [*]In the Wicked Fantasy setting, gnomes have thrived because of the sheer fecundity of the race - staying healthy and fertile up until the final year of their lifespan, female gnomes average 30 to 50 children. I plan on stealing this aspect for Wild Gnomes, but does it make sense to have it for the Cog/Tek Gnomes too?

  Click to expand...

  
  Just following along a simple cultural generalities (perhaps even cliches) of the "more technological and scholarly -understandably more 'civilization' based- obsessed society" vs. the "Wild" more in tune with nature -one might say more "rural" minded, and taking into account the presumption that you will have them as the typically D&D/PF long-lived race (anything from 500-1500 years I think they've been over the decades), that 30-50 offspring with the Wild gnomes makes sense while the more distracted always tinkering figuring-things-out magi-science guys might produce significantly less...I'd say/guess around half that sounds about right.
  
  

  [*]Just what regional variants should I give the Wild Gnome race? I don't want to make subspecies that're too niche, because I remember how pathetic the Wavecrest Gnomes were in comparison to River Gnomes: both were water-dwelling gnome subraces, but only River Gnomes had a swim speed and enhanced breathholding! Wavecrests could just talk to seabirds and cast Know Direction 1/day. My current, tentative list is Mountain, Water, Forest, Grasslands and Swamp, based on the terrains of the Known World - I'm worried I'm missing some "native" terrain types, and I do want to leave room for more "exotic" Wild Gnomes, such as Jungle, Desert, Arctic, maybe even Sea if that can be made different to a regular Water Gnome.

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  Well, that's entirely up to you and just how specifically "granular" (or innately magically meldy?) you want to make them. I don't know that you need to have "[fresh] Water" gnomes for rivers/lakes/streams, and then "Sea gnomes" on top of that...unless you wanted to borrow frmo Dragonlance again [their sea elves] and justify them as kind of "shallow water" gnomes that could be fresh or salt water shores and shoals and coral reefs and the like, and then "deep water -far out and far under the sea only" gnomes.
  
  I don't really think that's necessary, especially if you already want to have Swamp gnomes and Forest gnomes. Let the forest gnomes handle the rivers and streams and lakes in their woods. The swamp gnomes would do the same with the abundance of moisture in their domain. I liked the "Wave" gnome idea and make them just shallow water shoreline/coral reef builders and sea cave carvers kind of gnomes (add deep sea ones later on if you really want). Obviously they need a swim speed, I personally would probably just save myself the future game trouble of counting "breath holding" rounds and make them amphibious...maybe the ability or magic to speak to sea mammals (I'm thinking a great affinity for sea otters! ) and marine birds...some water-bending magic kind of stuff for the powerful ones.
  
  My only other note would be - and I really don't have an answer for this. It's entirely up to you - but with the rabbits, are a grasslands gnome really necessary?
  
  Other than that, I think your list looks pretty solid. I'd go with Forest, Mountain, "Wave" (and "Plains" if you want). Save the Desert, Jungle, and Deep Sea varietals for some later supplement or specific adventure that introduces them as a non-[initially]-PC offshoot.
  
  

  [*]Just what should I call the "sciencey" gnome race? Cog Gnome or Tek Gnome - which sounds better?

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  My vote's on "Cog."
  
  "Tek," first of all should be "Tech" if you're going to use it. "Tek" just reminds me of bad Gygaxian Greyhawk purposely misspelled terms ("Nyr Dyv" - anyone up for a "Near Dive" in the Nyr Dyv sea?)...and that just bugs me.
  
  Also, if you go with "Cog" then a colloquialism used for that kind of gnome could be "Coggers" which, gnomes interacting with humans generally looking like little old men, is obviously from which the human term "codger" for a grumpy older man is derived.

Regarding overall history, as other have said, worry about what will concern the PCs first. Unless it becomes plot-relevant, knowing who created the Netherstorm and in what exact year is of less interest than whether the hordelands invaded in the last decade when the PCs were probably growing up. Stuff that a PC will just know is more important to start with than what could be recalled by making a History check.

Obviously culture and geography-defining events are important. But exact years aren't.

Regarding gnomes: Looks cool. Do they actually believe in 'spirits of the machine'? That sounds quite Adeptus Mechanicus style, so you could incorporate some of that imagery. Regarding their name, what would the humans who live near them call them? "Cogsoul Gnomes" would fit if they think of the gnomes as caring more for their machines for example and view the gnomes as having a soul of nothing but spinning, interlocking machines.

You could even take that a little further: to the gnomes, procreation is just a mundane necessity for continuing the species, but their inventions are the true children of that gnome. Machines are given names like wizard spells incorporating the name of their creator and it is considered a great insult to refer to one without referencing its creator. The only exception being the machines of such ubiquity and greatness that every gnome knows their creator.

steeldragons said:

Given that you have two distinct peoples I see no reason you couldn't use both. I would think, based on their cultural differences that it would be fairly easy to discern one type from the other anyway...among anyone who knows anything about gnomes which, I presume, most of this people on this world would. I'd probably go for "industrious engineering miniature elf" type gnomes and the more wild looking, brightly colored, anime-ish PF gnomes for the Wild. But you could easily meld the two together to make them your own.

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Well, I think I'd rather meld the designs to try and make the race more distinctive, personally. Thanks for helping me affirm that.

steeldragons said:

Just following along a simple cultural generalities (perhaps even cliches) of the "more technological and scholarly -understandably more 'civilization' based- obsessed society" vs. the "Wild" more in tune with nature -one might say more "rural" minded, and taking into account the presumption that you will have them as the typically D&D/PF long-lived race (anything from 500-1500 years I think they've been over the decades), that 30-50 offspring with the Wild gnomes makes sense while the more distracted always tinkering figuring-things-out magi-science guys might produce significantly less...I'd say/guess around half that sounds about right.

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Hmm... yes, and that works well with Cap'n Kobold's idea below.

steeldragons said:

Well, that's entirely up to you and just how specifically "granular" (or innately magically meldy?) you want to make them. I don't know that you need to have "[fresh] Water" gnomes for rivers/lakes/streams, and then "Sea gnomes" on top of that...unless you wanted to borrow frmo Dragonlance again [their sea elves] and justify them as kind of "shallow water" gnomes that could be fresh or salt water shores and shoals and coral reefs and the like, and then "deep water -far out and far under the sea only" gnomes.

I don't really think that's necessary, especially if you already want to have Swamp gnomes and Forest gnomes. Let the forest gnomes handle the rivers and streams and lakes in their woods. The swamp gnomes would do the same with the abundance of moisture in their domain. I liked the "Wave" gnome idea and make them just shallow water shoreline/coral reef builders and sea cave carvers kind of gnomes (add deep sea ones later on if you really want). Obviously they need a swim speed, I personally would probably just save myself the future game trouble of counting "breath holding" rounds and make them amphibious...maybe the ability or magic to speak to sea mammals (I'm thinking a great affinity for sea otters! ) and marine birds...some water-bending magic kind of stuff for the powerful ones.

My only other note would be - and I really don't have an answer for this. It's entirely up to you - but with the rabbits, are a grasslands gnome really necessary?

Other than that, I think your list looks pretty solid. I'd go with Forest, Mountain, "Wave" (and "Plains" if you want). Save the Desert, Jungle, and Deep Sea varietals for some later supplement or specific adventure that introduces them as a non-[initially]-PC offshoot.

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I was actually thinking to just make "Water Gnomes" a singular subrace that refers to any species that lives in close proximity to the water. The mercantile traders who ply the Mother River, the coast-dwellers, even undersea or underlake-dwelling pseudo-nixies may have different cultures, but mechanically, they're all Water Gnomes.

Well, for the grasslands gnome, I was thinking to steal Wicked Fantasy's depiction of them as pony-riding herders, or maybe tweak it - gransslands gnomes may be an Elfquest shout-out, in the form of short, elven beings who run with packs of wolves/wolf-like hunters and chase the herds of the Grassy Ocean through the night. Does that sound different to the haffuns and their agrarian culture, focused on farming and ranching?

Cap'n Kobold said:

Regarding overall history, as other have said, worry about what will concern the PCs first. Unless it becomes plot-relevant, knowing who created the Netherstorm and in what exact year is of less interest than whether the hordelands invaded in the last decade when the PCs were probably growing up. Stuff that a PC will just know is more important to start with than what could be recalled by making a History check.

Obviously culture and geography-defining events are important. But exact years aren't.

Regarding gnomes: Looks cool. Do they actually believe in 'spirits of the machine'? That sounds quite Adeptus Mechanicus style, so you could incorporate some of that imagery. Regarding their name, what would the humans who live near them call them? "Cogsoul Gnomes" would fit if they think of the gnomes as caring more for their machines for example and view the gnomes as having a soul of nothing but spinning, interlocking machines.

You could even take that a little further: to the gnomes, procreation is just a mundane necessity for continuing the species, but their inventions are the true children of that gnome. Machines are given names like wizard spells incorporating the name of their creator and it is considered a great insult to refer to one without referencing its creator. The only exception being the machines of such ubiquity and greatness that every gnome knows their creator.

Click to expand...

Well, I had meant that "function honors the spirit" referred to the gnome's own soul, but a sense of animism does make sense - after all, creating such devices is literally what fills the void in their souls.

With that in mind, your idea about machines as "the true children" sounds awesome - I really like that!

Cogsoul Gnome and Wildheart Gnome actually sounds pretty good for the racial divide; thank you for the suggestion.

So, I have some assorted notes on the Haffuns and on the Sun & Moon Elves. I really wanted to talk more about the gnomes, given my last post, but should I go ahead and post those as well?

I'm sorry, I just don't want this thread to die on me when it was off to such a promising start.