D&D 5E Mental prison; power creep, typo or working as intended

jaelis · Dec 7, 2017

ad_hoc said:
This does 27.5/55+55.

You mean 27.5/27.5+55, no? While it is more damage than disintegrate, it is spread over two rounds and 2/3 can be avoided via teleportation, dispel magic, or spoiling concentration. It's a good spell, but I don't think out of bounds.

Plus they had to do something to make up for Phantasmal Killer and Weird

Wiseblood · Dec 7, 2017

Mental prison I think it is too much. Way too much. I might be biased since I think warlock is a lame class built around a cantrip all to justify the inclusion of tieflings instead of a cooler race like goblins.

ad_hoc · Dec 7, 2017

jaelis said:
You mean 27.5/27.5+55, no? While it is more damage than disintegrate, it is spread over two rounds and 2/3 can be avoided via teleportation, dispel magic, or spoiling concentration. It's a good spell, but I don't think out of bounds.

Plus they had to do something to make up for Phantasmal Killer and Weird

Oh you're right, that's not nearly as bad. I think the wording of the damage is not standard to 5e, the repeat of the 5d10 tripped me up as I put an 'additional' in there where there is none.

It's certainly very good and deadly against the right sort of high level foe, but not simply superior to Disintegrate.

Rexwell · Dec 7, 2017

Not simply superior to disintegrate for straight damage, is that what you mean?

Why would teleportation (misty step, teleport, plane shift, blink, etc) escape this spell? The text says:

If the target is moved out of the illusion, makes a melee attack through it, or reaches any part of its body through it, the target takes 10d10 psychic damage, and the spell ends.

The trigger is moving out of the illusion, not how they do it. I’m not reading how teleporting will avoid the 10d10 damage yet will end the spell.

jaelis · Dec 7, 2017

Teleportation is not movement, you just vanish from point A and appear at point B. See for instance the opportunity attack rules.

Rexwell · Dec 7, 2017

I see where you’re coming from.

I don’t really agree though. Teleport is specifically called out as exempt from opportunity attacks. It doesn’t offer the mechanical or fluff reasoning. I think people are taking that specific instance and extrapolating back to say teleporting is not movement and does not trigger all movement effects, based on how teleport interacts in that one situation.

Not to say it won’t escape some instances I’m not thinking of right now, but for this specific spell (mental prison), I don’t feel it’s applicable.

I guess my emphasis is moved “out of the illusion” and teleporting, after all is said and done, is getting you out. Not triggering the spell because teleporting is not “moving” based on opportunity attack rules doesn’t seem as strong an argument.

mellored · Dec 7, 2017

ad_hoc said:
I was about to reply with the response 'well, that's in keeping with really high level spells' then checked it out and saw it was 6th level.

Disintegrate should be the standard here. Does 0/75 damage.

This does 27.5/55+55.

It does 27.5 on a success, or 82.5 on a failure.

But the big thing you missed is the concentration part. You can have greater invisibility on the fighter, and still cast disintegrate.
Or you can cast mental prison, have another enemy smack you to free it, and you only did 27.5 damage.

It's a decent spell, (better than the crappy investure spells) but I don't see it as overpowered, like mass suggestion.

ad_hoc · Dec 7, 2017

mellored said:
It does 27.5 on a success, or 82.5 on a failure.

But the big thing you missed is the concentration part. You can have greater invisibility on the fighter, and still cast disintegrate.
Or you can cast mental prison, have another enemy smack you to free it, and you only did 27.5 damage.

It's a decent spell, (better than the crappy investure spells) but I don't see it as overpowered, like mass suggestion.

Yeah, now that I see that I misread it (It should have just said does 5d10 damage. Then talked about the saving throw after that but still my mistake) I still think it is really good, and devastating against the right foes, but not obscene like I thought before.

Saeviomagy · Dec 8, 2017

Rexwell said:
I see where you’re coming from.

I don’t really agree though. Teleport is specifically called out as exempt from opportunity attacks. It doesn’t offer the mechanical or fluff reasoning. I think people are taking that specific instance and extrapolating back to say teleporting is not movement and does not trigger all movement effects, based on how teleport interacts in that one situation.

Not to say it won’t escape some instances I’m not thinking of right now, but for this specific spell (mental prison), I don’t feel it’s applicable.

I guess my emphasis is moved “out of the illusion” and teleporting, after all is said and done, is getting you out. Not triggering the spell because teleporting is not “moving” based on opportunity attack rules doesn’t seem as strong an argument.

Since the flavour of the spell is that you're trapped within something dangerous and interacting with it hurts you, it makes perfect sense that no longer being trapped without interacting with the dangerous thing frees you with no damage, just like teleporting out of any real situation would.

There's also the fact that teleportation is never ever referred to as movement anywhere within the rules, which has some important implications: Your teleportation distance isn't reduced by difficult terrain, you can't mount up by teleporting. You can't stand up by teleporting. You can't jump, climb or swim while teleporting. You can teleport through intervening objects...

In general, the rules for teleporting and the rules for moving are not the same. The only similarity they share is "your position at the end of the teleport may be different to your position at the start of the teleport".

Gadget · Dec 8, 2017

Stalker0 said:
Back to the OP, it should be noted that the automatic 5d10 psychic damage by itself is already quite good. Its better damage than magic missile (the other auto damage spell), and psychic I would say is close to force in how little resistance you normally have against it.

Second, as an Int save...the chance of getting this on a monster is nigh automatic in many cases. Especially your melee oriented ones where restrained can be a harsh condition.

Even without the movement clause, there are a lot of monsters where your choice is:

1) Stand there and do nothing (because your restrained and can't move into melee).
2) Take 10d6 damage and move on with your life.

A lot of DMs will take option 2 simply because better that the monster does something.

So my assessment is that this spell is clearly top tier for its level for damage. That said, I don't know if its power creep or correction. I have generally found the damage 6th level spells to be lackluster. But it clearly blows disintegrate out of the water.

I agree. I tend to lean toward course correction. And if you think Xanthanar's is Power Creep, I suggest you take a look at Enervation, Create Homunculus, and many of the reprints from EE. Not exactly top tear. This one might be a little too much, but it offers the target a tough choice: remain out of the combat or take a boatload of damage. I kind of like the design behind it that, even if it is not perfect.

D&D 5E Mental prison; power creep, typo or working as intended

jaelis

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Wiseblood

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ad_hoc

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Rexwell

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jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?

Rexwell

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mellored

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ad_hoc

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Saeviomagy

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Gadget

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