D&D 5E Warlock group think

TheOneGargoyle

Explorer
I just don't have these problems. My warlock is usually the party tank...

Would love to hear more about how that is going Caliban !

How do you find your success in that role ? Are you finding it fun ? What levels are you all and what are the other party members builds ? How do they work with you / synergize with you in that role ? What do you find are the most effective strategies and what do you find doesn't work so well ? Was it your intention to be in the that role and did you build accordingly with that in mind from the start or did you end up in that role for some reason ?
 

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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
If things get tough you need more than +1d6.

Agreed. Luckily you have a d6 per beam because they are separate attacks. Fighters and EB get 3 attacks at 11th compared to other weapon wielders 2 (or rogue's 1, but they have a different mechanic). EB is the only one that goes up to four native attacks.

If that previous combat was easy then you didn't need to spend your spell on Hex.

Rubbish. Well, you never need to cast a particular spell. But by your own definition - if it's an easy combat, it's likely to be over quickly with minimal damage to you and therefore you Hex will last until the next combat. So it's up for that one as well. And keeps going until you either screw up an easy save or you reach a combat where you "need" it.

At that point you've added d6 to every hit you've had in multiple combats, killing foes quicker to deny their actions and therefore saving resources (even if it's just some HPs) for the whole party.

AND, there is a good chance that by that point you've had a short rest, so in the hard combat where you want the extra damage, you are starting with it AND still have all of your slots.

In other words, it's a great spell to cast (with a 3rd+ slot) during an easy combat because you also need to consider future use.

But please don't take this as "you must cast Hex". Pishtosh. I've been talking up hex vs. "it's not worth ever casting", but I can see it coming across as "it is always worth casting".

You have plenty of spells and others will often be a better fit for a situation. Just like the rest of your spells, Hex is a good fit for a particular time - when you're looking to do single target (at a time) damage. Sometimes, that's what you need. Sometimes, it's not.

It's Mage Armour vs Shield. Shield is better because you can use it for a greater effect when you actually need it. Mage Armour requires an upfront casting and might be completely useless.

(Taking this with standard casters, since neither are on the Warlock base list.)

If you want to put forth that in an entire day worth of adventuring you only get attacked exactly once, and the 2 points of AC between shield and mage armor is the difference between a hit and a miss, then it's useless. But the second you get attacked more than once in an adventuring day then Mage Armor is worth more. Get attacked just once per combat would probably require more than a single Shield spell to generate the same number of misses the mage armor does. (And having BOTH is worth even more, though that's not part of this.)

Sorry, your example is only true in a corner case and demonstrably wrong in general usage.

Instead of doing a bit more damage in a fight there are plenty of spells and invocations that can end or bypass a fight entirely.

That's what spellcasters are great at.

Absolutely. However, of the full casters, Warlocks are the worst at it simply because of lack of options. Silent Image is a great spell - I'd take it. But once an illusion has been discovered in combat it may not be very effective later. Or against things that notice there is no sound. Or have alternate senses. But it's an invocation - you have very few of them.

It comes down to the opportunity cost - one more invocation after you've already picked your favorites can and will be useful in some circumstances. But alternately, you can spend the invocation slot on something that will be a useful fallback in all circumstances, and scales with level as more beams do more damage.

You're right, that's a much harder choice when you only have two invocations, since your #2 pick is still probably very good.

If you want to play a Warlock as a ranged attacker that's fine. Just don't complain when all your character does is ranged attacks. Also don't state that it is the strongest/best way to Warlock.

Again, completely agree. Hopefully you read in my previous post where I talked about how Warlocks can do many amazing things. And the second part on the comment that with limited slots per rest, it's also good to able to contribute at-will to fill the rest of the time you aren't using your spells or invocations at a rate equal to or better than the other sustainable damage dealers.

There are plenty of very strong and powerful ways to play Warlock that don't involve Hex or Eldritch Blast.

Again, agree. But since you can do those AND take advantage of Eldritch Blast whenever you need an action to just do some damage, I don't understand why you'd ignore them. Even if you aren't using Hex.

While Eldritch Blast is a good option, it's also perfectly okay not to take it. I've read a lot of comments that if a Warlock doesn't take Eldritch Blast they're actively playing a terrible character. I will even go as far as to say that Hex is not optimal after level 5. It's fine, not terrible, but not terribly strong either. It is pretty terrible after level 9 though.

The point of the post is that there are many ways to play powerful Warlocks because a lot of people feel like the only good way is Hex + Agonizing Blast. Do you feel that way?

See, now this has some things I agree with and some thigns I don't. I have not been saying that Warlocks are only good as EB turrets. Plenty of ways to play them, and any one that just wants to make ranged attacks wold probably be better with an archer. Warlocks have lots of options.

What I have been saying that EB is a useful tool to fill the gap around everything else they can do. And that a tool that you use regularly (say a couple times a combat every combat of the day) is worth investing some resources in to make better. Oh, and I've hopefully been dispelling myths about Hex in higher level slots.
 

Not sure which camp I'm in. My sole objection is that a blade pact warlock can do more sustainable damage with Agonizing Blast than with their weapon, unless they are stupid optimized (multiple dump stats along with feats and multiclassing). This is a problem because I disagree that blade pact is intended to be an alternative for when your eldritch blast won't work. I believe intent was for weapon use to replace eldritch blasting -- which it fails at.

Similarly, my primary problem with hexblast, I mean hexblade, is that it appears designed to fix that, but in fact doesn't. Because the hexblade features work just as well with eldritch blast, and because you will get more attacks with a blast than with a weapon, it not only fails to fix it, it actually exacerbates the issue. Fortunately, that hexblade issue can be more or less fixed in a home campaign with a house rule that it's features only work with a weapon attack.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
If you want to put forth that in an entire day worth of adventuring you only get attacked exactly once, and the 2 points of AC between shield and mage armor is the difference between a hit and a miss, then it's useless. But the second you get attacked more than once in an adventuring day then Mage Armor is worth more. Get attacked just once per combat would probably require more than a single Shield spell to generate the same number of misses the mage armor does. (And having BOTH is worth even more, though that's not part of this.)

Sorry, your example is only true in a corner case and demonstrably wrong in general usage.

That's not how it works. The attacks don't matter, just the hits. If you get attacked 5 times and get hit 5 times with Mage Armour up then it did nothing.

If you get attacked 5 times and get hit 5 times with Shield AND the attacks were too good for Shield to be effective then at least you didn't waste a slot.

Sometimes Mage Armour will protect from 1 hit. Many times it will do nothing. It will rarely protect from 2 or more hits.

Shield will (almost) always protect from 1 hit. Sometimes it will protect from 2 or more hits as it lasts until your turn.


Absolutely. However, of the full casters, Warlocks are the worst at it simply because of lack of options. Silent Image is a great spell - I'd take it. But once an illusion has been discovered in combat it may not be very effective later. Or against things that notice there is no sound. Or have alternate senses. But it's an invocation - you have very few of them.

Silent Image is not for casting in combat.

Again, completely agree. Hopefully you read in my previous post where I talked about how Warlocks can do many amazing things.

Then why are you arguing?
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I believe intent was for weapon use to replace eldritch blasting -- which it fails at.

I think people expect too much out of the pacts.

The Warlock subclass is split into Patrons and Pacts. Each one on its own is not that powerful, though Patrons have more than the Pacts of course.

I would agree that the Blade Pact is the weakest one. They could have given Cha to hit/dmg on it and it wouldn't be out of line.

Similarly, my primary problem with hexblast, I mean hexblade, is that it appears designed to fix that, but in fact doesn't. Because the hexblade features work just as well with eldritch blast, and because you will get more attacks with a blast than with a weapon, it not only fails to fix it, it actually exacerbates the issue. Fortunately, that hexblade issue can be more or less fixed in a home campaign with a house rule that it's features only work with a weapon attack.

Completely agree. Hexblade is both ridiculously overpowered and thin on theme. It's a mess.

I'm not sure how making the features only work with a weapon attack would work.

If I am houseruling then (and I haven't thought this through) I would probably give Cha to hit/dmg (with melee weapons) to the Pact, remove Medium Armour & Shields from Hexblade, and like I think you implied, make Curse dmg/crit only activate on melee weapon attacks.
 

Stalker0

Legend
The warlock is not my favorite class but I don't think they are necessarily underpowered. I think my issue is it seems like the invocations are very polar. There are some that look amazingly good, and others that are just a complete waste of paper. Most of the warlock builds I've seen just rely on some very strong invocation combo.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
The warlock is not my favorite class but I don't think they are necessarily underpowered. I think my issue is it seems like the invocations are very polar. There are some that look amazingly good, and others that are just a complete waste of paper. Most of the warlock builds I've seen just rely on some very strong invocation combo.

One thing I do like about XGtE are the non-pact invocations.

I like the new precedent of having the 1/long rest invocations not using a spell slot. If we apply that to the old ones it opens up a lot more choices.

Personally I think a strength of Warlocks is to be able to participate in all 3 pillars. A well rounded invocation selection allows them to be relevant most of the time.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Warlock is, in my opinion, the single best class for new players.

In my experience, most people who are new to D&D want to play spellcasters. Sure, you get the occasional newbie who wants to be a knight in shining armor, or an elf archer. But magic is just such a huge part of the appeal of the fantasy genre that not a lot of newcomers want to settle for playing some dude with a sword if magic is on the table. But, spellcasting can be complicated for new players.

The Warlock, however, is much more manageable. They get a smaller number of spell slots that recover more often, so there's less resource management to worry about. You can basically cast one of your leveled spells per encounter, just enough to make you feel like a badass mage. And then for the rest of the encounter, you can fall back on Eldritch Blast and be just as effective as a longbow-wielding archer. But you get to be a magic archer, which feels cool. And on top of all that, the Patron gives your character a great tie-in to the world and your DM a convenient source of adventure hooks. Plus, they've got a bit of an edge, which makes them feel a little more exciting than a traditional Wizard. What more could you want in a newcomer-friendly Class?

I also think the Warlock is a great choice for experienced players; it's my favorite class to play as (sorry Rogue. You know I'll always love you.) But the Warlock is just so great. Between Patron, Boon, and Invocations, it's easily the most customizable Class. And no, you don't have to go the Hex + Agonizing Blast route to contribute; it's a great ranged damage build if you want to play that, but there are other ways to be effective as a Warlock.

Shame about the Hexblade.
 
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mellored

Legend
I'm not sure I understand your comments about using hex you are level 5. Once you've reached 5th level you cast it once using your 3rd level slot and it will last 8 hours. Leaving you with free slots for most of the day to do all of the things you are talking about, AND still have hex up. Concentration DCs are generally easy, though there are times you want to drop it for a different spell with Concentration. Not a big deal, but doesn't prevent you from taking advantage of a single casting lasting many fights, including over short rests where you regain slots.
There aren't many good non-concentration warlock spells. Mostly Armor of Aagayths until level 9, then add snyaptic static. Maybe fireball for fiends, and an occasional counterspell.

Not a bad set, as it frees up spells for out of combat, but easy to skip in favor of cause fear, darkness, suggestion, or summon greater demon.
 

yakuba

Explorer
Not sure which camp I'm in. My sole objection is that a blade pact warlock can do more sustainable damage with Agonizing Blast than with their weapon, unless they are stupid optimized (multiple dump stats along with feats and multiclassing). This is a problem because I disagree that blade pact is intended to be an alternative for when your eldritch blast won't work. I believe intent was for weapon use to replace eldritch blasting -- which it fails at.


What's your basis for this belief? The pacts provide the least benefit of any of the elements of the Warlock class (Class features, patron, pact). The book provides provides additional cantrips, does anybody believe think that supplants EB/AB? It's easier to think of a rogue. Obviously a rogue should melee when advantageous and use missile weapons when advantages. The blade pact just adds this versatility to the warlock

Similarly, my primary problem with hexblast, I mean hexblade, is that it appears designed to fix that, but in fact doesn't. Because the hexblade features work just as well with eldritch blast, and because you will get more attacks with a blast than with a weapon, it not only fails to fix it, it actually exacerbates the issue. Fortunately, that hexblade issue can be more or less fixed in a home campaign with a house rule that it's features only work with a weapon attack.

You too far in the weeds. The Hexblade addresses the game level problem that people wanted a warlock gish. Now they can make one, as the Hexblade is explicitly designed to make a melee first warlock feasible. They made a archetype that there was clear demand for available. I'd agree with a lot of the specific complaints about how it doesn't really fit with the other patron types, but the top level goals is to be able to build the characters people want to play. In some sense it's an ugly duct-tape fix, but it will genuinely make some people happy.
 

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