D&D 5E Reclassing the 6 attributes

CubicsRube · Jan 18, 2018

This is just for fun, but i wonder what would happen if d&d had the following six attributes:

strength - (merged str and con)
dexterity (thieves tools, sleight of hand, finesse and ranged attacks, etc)
agility (ac, initiative, stealth, acrobatics and saving throws)
perception (replaces int and all knowledge skills plus perception rolls)
willpower (saving throws, wis spellcasters, etc)
cha (same except includes insight)

Characters would be more MAD to be sure. But would they be more interesting?

DEFCON 1 · Jan 18, 2018

Ability scores do not make a character interesting. How the player plays the character makes them interesting. It doesn't matter what the stats are... the d20 you add to it makes much more of an impact to the mechanical representation of the character that most of the time you'll never notice a -2 versus a +5 especially when skill checks are involved. You could be a -2 INT mod character, but those two times in the session the DM asked you to make an INT check and you rolled an 18 and a 17 vs DC 15 checks means you were never "stupid" during that session. Unless you actual roleplay your character as being stupid during the game. Thus changing the descriptors of what the six scores represent as you do above will do little in the long run, if your players act the exact same way at the table regardless if one of those descriptors is a -2 versus a +3.

If you want interesting PCs... don't focus on numbers. Focus on personality that these numbers represent. And actually act play into what having a negative score is supposed to be.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 18, 2018

Although I agree that it is how a character is played that makes a character interesting, that isn't mutually exclusive with good mechanics leading (or not leading) to interesting decisions.

My issue with the current setup is just that for any given character there's one or two stats you want as high as possible, one or two more that you want as high as you can get as long as its not at the price of the first two, and then the rest that you really don't care about.

(Another issue is that both methods of stat generation for AL lead to cookie cutter builds with nothing below 8, but that's for another discussion.)

I would simply like to see:
- Stats balanced somewhat in importance
- The elimination of each class having an "attack stat" that determines their +attack and +damage, and the corollary that STR and DEX are not effectively interchangeable.

Basically, I want all classes to be MAD, with no dump stats. There should be a bigger cost to dumping, although with the right attitude it's not a penalty it's just another source of fun.

Coroc · Jan 18, 2018

You might eventually want to call agility Speed though, and perception is only a small subset of all the intelligence skills. Further on, constitution could be split into stamina and health.

Consider this though: Through the Editions they changed tons of things even the saving throws and the mechanics for them but they kept the attributes, even though the modifiers changed from Basic to add, from add2nd to d&d3rd i am no good at 4rth, i think in 4rth Edition attributes were pretty much unimportant, in 5th they gave every Attribute a meaning again at least.

But they never changed the set as such. any System doing that will have a hard time on being downward compatible.

MechaTarrasque · Jan 18, 2018

I would probably just fold constitution into class level (20 levels, d20, the bonuses would be the same); if necessary, give certain classes advantage on con saves. Splitting dex into dex and agility seems good (dex is hand focused and agility is foot focused).

For the mental stats, I would probably make them morale (primary defensive, except for paladins), cunning (quick thinking), and analytical (thorough thinking).

Sunseeker · Jan 18, 2018

If you're looking to make stat priorities matter, you're going to need class features that utilize them, and the choice to use them...or not.

Charisma for example has almost no use for Fighters. They'll never use it. Putting points in it is actively reducing their ability to perform in their class features. BUT if you had the option to take say, a Battlemaster-like class who used swashbuckler-style "panache" based on Charisma to perform tricks, you'd make Charisma into a meaningful choice for some fighters.

A choice has to exist before it can be made.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 18, 2018

shidaku said:
If you're looking to make stat priorities matter, you're going to need class features that utilize them, and the choice to use them...or not.

Charisma for example has almost no use for Fighters. They'll never use it. Putting points in it is actively reducing their ability to perform in their class features. BUT if you had the option to take say, a Battlemaster-like class who used swashbuckler-style "panache" based on Charisma to perform tricks, you'd make Charisma into a meaningful choice for some fighters.

A choice has to exist before it can be made.

Great example.

Renaming the stats might be a fun game but is essentially pointless: no matter which six you choose there are going to be many limits and compromises, and anyway D&D will never change them.

However, finding more interesting ways to use the six we have can be productive. (I, for one, have faith that even if MM and JC don't read Enworld, good ideas become memes in the community and may eventually percolate up and appear in future editions.)

FrogReaver · Jan 18, 2018

CubicsRube said:
This is just for fun, but i wonder what would happen if d&d had the following six attributes:

strength - (merged str and con)

dexterity (thieves tools, sleight of hand, finesse and ranged attacks, etc)

agility (ac, initiative, stealth, acrobatics and saving throws)

perception (replaces int and all knowledge skills plus perception rolls)

willpower (saving throws, wis spellcasters, etc)

cha (same except includes insight)

Characters would be more MAD to be sure. But would they be more interesting?

Specialization is rewarded more in d&d than jack of all trades. Your proposal doesn't change that underlying system and so you'll see characters with different stats taken but you'll still see the tendency toward extreme highs even if it requires an extreme low somewhere else to achieve.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 18, 2018

FrogReaver said:
Your proposal doesn't change that underlying system and so you'll see characters with different stats taken but you'll still see the tendency toward extreme highs even if it requires an extreme low somewhere else to achieve.

Personally I don't think there's a inherent problem with players min/maxing their stats, I just think that the low ones should have more of an impact, for two reasons:
1) It's just more fun if the low stats have mechanical implications. Sure, I can roleplay a dumb fighter but it would also be fun for his dumb-ness to affect dice outcomes (I mean, I guess I could try to read spellbooks so the DM would tell me to roll Arcana, but that's not really what I meant.)
2) More importantly, it would make non-min/maxed characters more viable, and thus lessen the pressure to do so. I would love it if a fighter with 14 Str and 16 Int had some notable advantage over a min/maxed Fighter. Maybe not all-around better, but at least better at some aspects of being a Fighter.

FrogReaver · Jan 18, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
Personally I don't think there's a inherent problem with players min/maxing their stats, I just think that the low ones should have more of an impact, for two reasons:
1) It's just more fun if the low stats have mechanical implications. Sure, I can roleplay a dumb fighter but it would also be fun for his dumb-ness to affect dice outcomes (I mean, I guess I could try to read spellbooks so the DM would tell me to roll Arcana, but that's not really what I meant.)
2) More importantly, it would make non-min/maxed characters more viable, and thus lessen the pressure to do so. I would love it if a fighter with 14 Str and 16 Int had some notable advantage over a min/maxed Fighter. Maybe not all-around better, but at least better at some aspects of being a Fighter.

It could definitely be nice if every class gained some kind of class benefit for most stats. Or it could be more limiting as well. Often the more mechanical options you add the more limited characters you actually allow.

D&D 5E Reclassing the 6 attributes

CubicsRube

Hero

DEFCON 1

Legend

Guest 6801328

Guest

Coroc

Hero

MechaTarrasque

Hero

Sunseeker

Guest

Guest 6801328

Guest

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Guest 6801328

Guest

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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