D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

ad_hoc said:
Yep.

It goes something like this:

"Oh you're a gamer eh? You like D&D? Well who was the king of the dwarves in the Forgotten Realms in DR 1050? Oh you don't know? Fake gamer girl."

But it happens directed at new men to the hobby as well. Which is why I say this claim it's about women is baloney. I don't think there is a correlation. And I have seen lots of people behave poorly towards women in gaming through role playing as opposed to through rules gatekeeping. I think we've all cringed as we saw someone try and hit on a girl through the role playing in the game. And then there is just plain direct sexism to the woman, unrelated to gaming rules or role playing just in the room out of character. I see no correlation between those who gatekeep using the rules, and those who behave that way to women. It's no more or less common as far as I can tell than other forms of bad behavior towards women in gaming.

I think some don't like rules gatekeeping, and also don't like sexism, and are connecting the two out of an assumption that what they perceive as bad behavior #1 is connected to bad behavior #2. I don't think they are connected (any more or less than "people who behavior bad at one endeavor tend to behave bad in other endeavors").

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

77IM said:
I don't think the word "means" means the same thing to you that it does to me.

So it depends what the word "is" means?

hawkeyefan · Jan 23, 2018

Mistwell said:
But it happens directed at new men to the hobby as well. Which is why I say this claim it's about women is baloney. I don't think there is a correlation. And I have seen lots of people behave poorly towards women in gaming through role playing as opposed to through rules gatekeeping. I think we've all cringed as we saw someone try and hit on a girl through the role playing in the game. And then there is just plain direct sexism to the woman, unrelated to gaming rules or role playing just in the room out of character. I see no correlation between those who gatekeep using the rules, and those who behave that way to women. It's no more or less common as far as I can tell than other forms of bad behavior towards women in gaming.

I think some don't like rules gatekeeping, and also don't like sexism, and are connecting the two out of an assumption that what they perceive as bad behavior #1 is connected to bad behavior #2. I don't think they are connected (any more or less than "people who behavior bad at one endeavor tend to behave bad in other endeavors").

No, he lists gatekeeping and discrimination against women as two different behaviors, but points out that many who have the first also seem to have the second.

Tanin Wulf · Jan 23, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
I don't know that it matters if he has a shred of evidence if he's simply stating his opinion based on his experiences. Twitter is not supposed to be a peer-reviewed journal. Moreover, as long as I'm on this point, ENWorld isn't a peer-reviewed journal and he didn't submit his thoughts to us to be reviewed

But... this is the harsh judgment of the Internet! What higher peer-review can there possibly BE?!

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
MENSA isn't a great example, simply because the organization itself is an example of gatekeeping. The intent of the current design team of D&D is that it should not be.

KB
- A member of MENSA since 1990.

I agree MENSA is an organization based on gatekeeping. Which is why it's a good example for what I am talking about - that gatekeeping in itself isn't some great evil and is something fairly benign and enjoyed by some subcultures. It doesn't have to have anything to do with discriminating against women and minorities. But, as a member, I think you will agree you've likely seen MENSA members use rules gatekeeping in a game (likely a board game or card game of some sort) as a fairly benign intellectual exercise and not as some nefarious means of harming others.

Jefe Bergenstein · Jan 23, 2018

Tanin Wulf said:
Every store owner is one for his or her own community.

One of the reason gaming stores frequenlty close/suck are they only cater to a small, insular crowd. You don't need a gatekeeper, you need a BOUNCER. Assume no one will be a problem until they are.

Ever person organizing a gaming group is one for his or her own community. (EDIT: Heck, what you're doing right now is gatekeeping me, the new person on the scene in this sense.)

It isn't gatekeeping to gatekeep the gatekeepers. The hobby doesnt need random people deciding they get to pick and choose who is ok and who is a secret agent of discord infiltrating the hallowed halls of D&D. Yes, we select who we invite into our own group/homes, but that's different than the systemic issues of women (and POC, and LGBTQ people) being subject to extra scrutiny gatekeeping. It's a hostile environment. Hell, check out the issues of harassment at cons. It's one of the reasons D&D has been a straight, white, boys club for so long. And it's time for a change. The mere fact that a woman can't be hired without a bunch of bitter men crawling out of the woodwork to gripe about "women, SJW, and diversity" should be proof of that.

Also I didn't bring up your post count.

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

hawkeyefan said:
Perhaps because that's the relevant definition in the context of Mearls's tweet and in this conversation?

It's not though - rules gatekeeping is not defined as having anything to do with discriminatory behavior towards women and minorities. That's my point and I have given several examples of rules gatekeeping I've personally seen which had nothing to do with those issues. He's properly using the word gatekeeping, the very same one I am using and in the same context. He's just claiming one type of gatekeeping is practiced by those who do the other type as well. And I am saying I think he's wrong - they're not related. People who do that to women are just as prone to be heavy role players or just plain sexists, unrelated to rules gatekeeping. Have you seriously never seen someone try and gatekeep the game by behaving poorly in role playing towards someone else? I really don't think this is related to people who like rules gatekeeping.

Kobold Boots · Jan 23, 2018

Mistwell said:
But, as a member, I think you will agree you've likely seen MENSA members use rules gatekeeping in a game (likely a board game or card game of some sort) as a fairly benign intellectual exercise and not as some nefarious means of harming others.

Agreed to all of your points. My take on that would simply be that the gatekeeping is both implied and directly stated as part of the social fabric of being a member of the group. Simply stated, it's why it's not "problem" gatekeeping.

On the other hand, if I don't make sure that everyone is aware of the gatekeeping in a D&D game or group that I run up front, before they invest themselves, that's a good example of "problem" gatekeeping.

Most people looking to be in a D&D game won't be looking for that sort of thing and if I'm not careful with how I advertise what I'm looking for, I would expect to be pilloried, tarred and feathered by the community.

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

Kobold Boots said:
I don't know that it matters if he has a shred of evidence if he's simply stating his opinion based on his experiences. Twitter is not supposed to be a peer-reviewed journal. Moreover, as long as I'm on this point, ENWorld isn't a peer-reviewed journal and he didn't submit his thoughts to us to be reviewed

I mentioned that because earlier in the thread someone said Mearls is in a position to know based on survey data and such. It's a long thread so I don't expect you to have seen that part.

Mistwell · Jan 23, 2018

hawkeyefan said:
No, he lists gatekeeping and discrimination against women as two different behaviors, but points out that many who have the first also seem to have the second.

Yes, I know. I am glad we're all on the same page now

I am disagreeing with his claim that there is a correlation between the two. I don't think there is.

D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

hawkeyefan

Legend

Tanin Wulf

First Post

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Jefe Bergenstein

Legend

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Kobold Boots

Banned

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

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