D&D 5E Mearls' "Firing" tweet

epithet said:

The worst was Thor. If they want to make Jane a thunder goddess, fine... but Thor is the dude's name ffs. They thought they could take a dude's name away and just call him "Odinsson" and all the comic book fans would go right along with that?

Of course, I've been disappointed with comic book Thor since I was a little kid. I wanted the fierce giant-smasher with the chariot pulled through the sky by two giant goats, not some surfer dude with inexplicable knock-off Shakespearean diction.

The only argument in favor of "re-casting" existing characters is that I don't think there are any names left in the Marvel universe. Pretty much any "code name" you can come up with has had at least one superhero use it already.

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Oh man, but Jane Foster as Thor is a great character. That's a damn solid book.

Swapping out the character behind the super-hero goes back a long time in comic books. I'm not saying it's an approach without flaws and I'm of mixed opinions on it. Using an existing major superhero gives the character a major boost when you are promoting the new book. Trying to build up a brand new superhero takes a lot more work. On the other hand, it feels like any new character in the role of a major super is only there temporarily, until they bring the original back, which doesn't seem awesome.

Ss long as nobody touches Ms. Marvel, I'm happy. Kamala Khan is the truth.

Flexor the Mighty! said:

they went with a big intersectional/feminist push in the writing of a lot of the comics, switched main characters to minorities. Iron Man is a black teenage girl, Thor is a woman who seem to spout a lot of feminist slogans while fighting sexist villians, Spider-man is a latino/black kid now, etc. Progressives hailed it while sales dropped. People seemed to want Spidey to be Peter Parker, even if Miles Morales is a good character.

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Funny I thought Miles Morales as Spiderman was both popular and doing extremely well. A little surprised especially since I believe the first marvel animated movie coming to theaters is based around him... but I could be wrong, any links where these heroes are cited specifically as the cause for a drop in sales as opposed to it being just a general downturn in sales, I'd like to read about it?

Imaro said:

Funny I thought Miles Morales as Spiderman was both popular and doing extremely well. A little surprised especially since I believe the first marvel animated movie coming to theaters is based around him... but I could be wrong, any links where these heroes are cited specifically as the cause for a drop in sales as opposed to it being just a general downturn in sales, I'd like to read about it?

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I've read a lot of articles on sales dropping and backlash though maybe I've mistakenly put that book in when I shouldn't have.

http://thekingdominsider.com/marvel-comics-implosion-politics/

Flexor the Mighty! said:

Reminds me of the intersectionalists who tell me that denying being a racist(or any -ist), and asking for proof or evidence of some incident of racism is in itself proof of the racism.

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If you're gonna poo-poo Kimberle Crenshaw's work (ditto Patricia Hill-Collins and other Black feminists), at least know what she says about the terminology she came up with (which "intersectionalist" is...not the correct form of). It sounds like calling D&D 5e bad game design because of THAC0.

Yeah Miles is doing just fine, as are quite a few of the other lines that often get brought up in Marvel's push for more inclusive heroes (Ms. Marvel and basically anything related to Gwen, like Gwenpool/Spidergwen).

There's a point that seems to be getting made that Mearls somehow "drew a line in the sand" (to paraphrase if not actually quote anybody) in telling misogynists to get out of his game. He did not. The line was already drawn, by the toxic misogynists that started all of this hoopla over Kate Welch's hiring in the first place. Mearls was simply letting us, and especially the women who have experienced harassment or gatekeeping or misogyny in D&D or broader nerd culture (read: most women who engage in D&D or broader nerd culture) which side of the line he stands on. That's important.

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The only other point I think worth clarifying is the whole "white men can't be discriminated against" thing. I think there's semantic disconnect between the people who actually study systems of oppression, power and privilege and everyone else, and I like to call it the difference between big-R Racism, as academically defined, and little-r racism, as most people understand it (obviously sub in sexism, ableism, etc.) The general academic consensus defines Racism as a system of oppression that positively privileges the dominant race and negatively impacts all others. This what people mean when they say white people can't face Racism or men can't face Sexism; virtually all of our dominant societal and cultural structures were built by and for white men. That doesn't preclude individual instances of prejudice (which is what most people think when they hear the word racism) or even discrimination against white people or men or what have you. Just that the basic structures that dominate our lives clearly and definitively privilege white men; and yes, there's been countless research/studies in this; housing, bank loans, education, hiring, criminal justice, etc. etc., it's not really a matter that's up for debate.

Note that these definitions, at least as applied to white-ness, are somewhat ironically Euro-centric in nature; clearly this same sort of thing happens all over the world in places where white people are not the predominant race, but you'd be surprised how privileged white-ness is in places like South Korea, South America, South Africa, etc. Of course, there's very little of the habitable globe that hasn't been impacted in some way by European colonialism, so that shouldn't be terribly surprising.

Flexor the Mighty! said:

I've read a lot of articles on sales dropping and backlash though maybe I've mistakenly put that book in when I shouldn't have.

http://thekingdominsider.com/marvel-comics-implosion-politics/

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Well strangely enough here's an article stating that Jane Foster as Thor is Marvels second highest selling book and also makes the case that Marvels claims of diversity causing sales to drop doesnt really seem to add up...

https://nerdist.com/marvel-diversity-comics-david-gabriel-wrong/

Not a Marvel comics sort of person, but from my understanding of it from people I know who are, declining Marvel comics sales may have had something to do with turning paragons of freedom and justice into Nazis.

Obryn said:

That's not how fighting works. That's how retreating works.


What, exactly, are you worried about here? In what sense is anyone sacrificing D&D? What losses do you foresee?

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Only retreating if you are not acting at all. There is a vast difference between not feeding the trolls and not acting to counter them. DnD was given a massive advantage by focus on this particular new hire; why not leverage that attention to show that WotC is committed to equality by instead focusing on positively presenting her and possibly using her as a face of the company's values? No need to fight the trolls at all, and any effort the trolls make to counter only spreads the message.

What am I worried about? Capitulation. DnD right now is a game with the beginnings of true inclusiveness. But engaging in this battle? It has two endings: pyrrhic victory or defeat. Ghostbusters was a potential pyrrhic victory. Marvel was a defeat. Which do you prefer? I prefer neither, so I want to not fight on the terms set by the trolls.

Sacrosanct said:

If only there was a term for when someone is arguing the status quo that inherently benefits them because they aren't part of the group adversely affected by said status quo...

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You mean the status quo where WotC continues its increase in inclusiveness and has a woman working for them who is untried, but has potential?

I am all for that status quo continuing.

Did you notice I said to ignore the trolls, but I did not say to capitulate to them?

robus said:

The Marvel reference is eluding me? They seem to be riding high, what cost have they brought upon themselves?

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Do a search for Marvel SJW. They pretty much admitted that focusing on inclusiveness and diversity hurt their profits and have decided to start cancelling that approach. So, basically, they admitted defeat.

epithet said:

The worst was Thor. If they want to make Jane a thunder goddess, fine... but Thor is the dude's name ffs.

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Thor may be the given name of the Marvel Character, but not quite true for the Old Norse Deity.

Thor just meant Thunder, and people personified that phenomenon into a human like figure with a hammer, just as they personified the phenomenon of Frenzy (Odin) into a figure with Spear. They didn't think Odin named Thor Thor or that Borr named Odin Odin.

To the Old Norse if someone else personified Thunder by swinging the hammer they would become Thor.

So to me it was a silly think to get worked up over.

I also liked seeing what Unworthy Thor could do without Mjolnir. Turns out he's still pretty dang awesome.

Gradine said:

The only other point I think worth clarifying is the whole "white men can't be discriminated against" thing. I think there's semantic disconnect between the people who actually study systems of oppression, power and privilege and everyone else, and I like to call it the difference between big-R Racism, as academically defined, and little-r racism, as most people understand it (obviously sub in sexism, ableism, etc.) The general academic consensus defines Racism as a system of oppression that positively privileges the dominant race and negatively impacts all others. This what people mean when they say white people can't face Racism or men can't face Sexism; virtually all of our dominant societal and cultural structures were built by and for white men. That doesn't preclude individual instances of prejudice (which is what most people think when they hear the word racism) or even discrimination against white people or men or what have you. Just that the basic structures that dominate our lives clearly and definitively privilege white men; and yes, there's been countless research/studies in this; housing, bank loans, education, hiring, criminal justice, etc. etc., it's not really a matter that's up for debate.

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Yes, I would only add that it is reasonable for them to resent white people for these reasons.

As for comic sales in NA:

2011: $715M
2012: $805M
2013: $870M
2014: $935M
2015: $1.03B
2016: $1.085B

Marvel's Market Share:

2015: 41.82%
2017: 36.36%

Marvel still leads DC. In 2017 Marvel had 5 of the top 10 comics and DC had the other 5. Marvel had the #1 spot.

Marvel Comics seem to be doing just fine.

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37939/comics-graphic-novel-sales-up-5-2016

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/39354/marvel-takes-2017-market-share-crown-comic-stores