Monk Attack sequences

So, playing a monk in 5e. My dungeon master and i talked this through as I researched some african martial arts traditions when developing my character.

The monk Martial Arts feature indicates that the monk can make one unarmed blow as a bonus action. In the real world description of the goal of some of these martial arts traditions is to "use the entire animal" so if you strke a weapon with your fighting stick you should use your momentum to drive your elbow into the side of your head.

DM made the call that as a martial artist that counts as just part of the attack action then.

We decided that because otherwise you are talking about a significant expense of a ki point to gain just 1 additional strike and that seems a steep price to pay for a very limited resource.

I have not reached 5th level yet, I imagine we will land on only being able to make use of the martial arts unarmed strike once, while still being to expend a ki point for two additional blows.

So at 4th level my attack sequence is:
1. Quarterstaff strike.
2. unarmed strike (which would be an elbow or some other follow through sort of strike with a body part)
3. (opitinal with expense of ki point) two additional unarmed strikes.

5th level would look like this
1. quarterstaff strike
2. unarmed strike (optional, if used here, can not use unarmed strike 4)
3. quarterstaff strike (extra attack feature)
4. unarmed strike (can be used only if not used in attack 2)
5. (optional with expense of Ki point) Flurry of Blows

Of course now, typing it out the momentum argument would need to apply to both the attack and extra attack...

What are other people's thoughts?

So, to clarify, you essentially gave the monk Extra Attack as a starting ability rather than at level 5, with level 5 increasing that to the level 11 Fighter equivalent ability, as long as one of the attacks is an unarmed strike?

This isn't just a big power boost in the damage capability department. Its also pretty major in terms of action economy since it frees up the bonus action option unless your dumping that into more damage as well.

Ki points refresh on a short rest, and increase rapidly as you level. They're not that limited a resource.

As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". What do you think is wrong with the standard monk rules that this modification is aimed at correcting? Do you think monk damage output is too low? If you do, I'm going to have to disagree: monks hurt, and monks performing flurry of blows hurt a lot. Or are you looking for some sort of increased verisimilitude? If you are, I must admit I don't quite understand what you're going for, but I might suggest looking for ways of doing it which don't have the side effect of substantially adding to the class' power level.

You don't need to spend a Ki point to make your unarmed Attack. Only if you want to use Flurry of Blows.
The decision to bake it into the Attack action is unnecessary, as there is no Ki to manage. At Level 1 you get 2 attacks a round, effectively, which is (a) amazing and (b) ties to your real world analogy of using the whole body.

I think there is no need to reinvent the wheel for verisimilitude.

Donald Braden said:

What are other people's thoughts?

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It seems like there are two issues your are looking at...

In the real world description of the goal of some of these martial arts traditions is to "use the entire animal" so if you strke a weapon with your fighting stick you should use your momentum to drive your elbow into the side of your head.

DM made the call that as a martial artist that counts as just part of the attack action then.

Click to expand...

It seems that you don't like the artificial distinction of the martial arts attack as a bonus action separate from the regular attacks. I've always viewed that as a purely mechanical artifact of the rules. In game, I would describe a bonus action attack, whether from martial arts, TWF, or anything else, as an organic part of your combat during the round. If that isn't good enough, perhaps interpret martial arts as "when you take the attack action, you can make one additional unarmed strike as part of the action. However, the additional time and effort prevents you from using a bonus action on that turn."

(Also, do note that already in the rules an unarmed strike can be made with any part of the body.)

The second issue is

We decided that because otherwise you are talking about a significant expense of a ki point to gain just 1 additional strike and that seems a steep price to pay for a very limited resource.

Click to expand...

This is a mechanical game balance question. If you've played the monk and feel it is significantly underpowered compared to the other characters at the table and that this would be a good adjustment, then go for it. But I wouldn't recommend basing that decision just on "how it looks" or on thematic concerns like your first point. Most people find the as-written monk to be reasonably well balanced, and your revision would make it quite a bit stronger, basically doubling its damage output at low levels.

Donald Braden said:

So, playing a monk in 5e. My dungeon master and i talked this through as I researched some african martial arts traditions when developing my character.

The monk Martial Arts feature indicates that the monk can make one unarmed blow as a bonus action. In the real world description of the goal of some of these martial arts traditions is to "use the entire animal" so if you strke a weapon with your fighting stick you should use your momentum to drive your elbow into the side of your head.

DM made the call that as a martial artist that counts as just part of the attack action then.

We decided that because otherwise you are talking about a significant expense of a ki point to gain just 1 additional strike and that seems a steep price to pay for a very limited resource.

I have not reached 5th level yet, I imagine we will land on only being able to make use of the martial arts unarmed strike once, while still being to expend a ki point for two additional blows.

So at 4th level my attack sequence is:
1. Quarterstaff strike.
2. unarmed strike (which would be an elbow or some other follow through sort of strike with a body part)
3. (opitinal with expense of ki point) two additional unarmed strikes.

5th level would look like this
1. quarterstaff strike
2. unarmed strike (optional, if used here, can not use unarmed strike 4)
3. quarterstaff strike (extra attack feature)
4. unarmed strike (can be used only if not used in attack 2)
5. (optional with expense of Ki point) Flurry of Blows

Of course now, typing it out the momentum argument would need to apply to both the attack and extra attack...

What are other people's thoughts?

Click to expand...

How often do short rests happen in your game compared to long rests?

What do the physical mechanics of martial arts have to do with whether an extra attack costs a bonus action? Bonus actions don't correspond to anything in the real world. They're just a balancing tool to keep people from stacking up too many special abilities in a single round.

I'd have said no, but it ain't my campaign. It probably won't break anything too badly.

Edit: I didn't read the OP carefully enough. Am I correct that you are proposing four attacks per round at 5th level, without expending any ki? If so, I take back my final sentence. That's gonna break things pretty badly.

A fighter at level 5 that uses the dual wield style as it compares most closely with a monk gets.

1. 2 attacks and a bonus attack all at about a d6+4 damage just like the monk. They both can do this without spending any additional resources
2. 2 extra attacks per short rest with action surge
3. 4 superiority dice that grant about 1d8 extra damage (similar enough in damage output to an extra attack)

Monks get.
1. 2 attacks and a bonus attack all at about d6+4 damage just like the fighter.
2. Flurry of blows to add an extra bonus action attack. Can be used 5 times per short rest.

Dual wield fighters get the equivalent of about 6 extra attacks per short rest. Monks get the equivalent of about 5 extra attacks per short rest.

Now in your scenario the monk is going to get:
10 extra attacks per short rest

The fighter gets 6 extra attacks per short rest.

The monk has less hp for higher movement, a free ranged damage reduction ability, some baked in versatility from stunning strike (a very important ability) and the ability to use ki to bonus action dodge etc. The monks subclass further adds versatility (free knockdowns or ability to cast useful spells with ki points etc). The fighter has more hp, about the same ac a decent self heal and a few effects from his superiority dice.

All in all a two weapon fighting fighter looks very equivalent to a normal monk IMO. Your monk changes tip everything in the monks favor IMO. Though it does make stunning strike less of a must use and more of a tradeoff.

Non-dual wield fighters probably fare better against the monk as there are more abilities and feats that play nice with those styles. If that's your concern then your change probably isn't hurting anything. Just keep in mind that ki scales really well into later levels. You may want to look at your monk at level 11 or 14 compared to a fighter to see how things compare at that point.

The monk attack did seem underpowered compared to fighters and the strength of spells available to spellcasters at similarly low levels. We are working through all of this as we are all new to 5e, some of us not playing for years.

how so? I mean, unless you only make 4 attacks in a day and use ki every singe time almost all of my 4th level attacks are just the Martial Arts attacks, which is how the rules are clearly set up, the monk weapon and unarmed strike. The reason I raised the question at all is I am getting close to levelling up and with the extra attack it might become more of an issue.