Avenger's Infinity War *Spoiler* Discussion

Thought it would be good to start a new thread specifically for those who have seen Avenger's Infinity War and want to discuss!

So, in case you missed it in the thread title

***Spoilers! This thread is for people who have seen the movie and want to discuss***

My initial reactions, first the positive,

* Lot's of great Tier IV level moments in the battles.
* Lot's of great character interaction
* All words are made up
* Giant Dwarf! That's how you forge a freaking Legendary magic item!
* I don't want to go...


Now the not so positive
* I thought Thanos was supposed to be smart. Yet neither his motivations nor his actions showed INT 20. Litch level this guy is not. And because his motivation is so silly, he doesn't come close to as good a villain as Loki, Ultron, Killmonger or Hydra.

* It was a huge mistake not having Dr. Strange reveal the 1 way to win against Thanos to someone. By keeping that in the mystery box, it undercuts the deaths of every single character in the film, because you don't know if that is part of the plan or not. The minute Strange has the plan, the movie has to become a Heist Film to maintain narrative cohesion. Right now, I'm assuming that every single character killed in AIW will come back, and if some don't, that means that I won't really mourn them until the next film. It's weird.

* And really, that leads me to this. Narratively, the film should have started in the third act. It's not interesting how Thanos get's the stones, it's interesting what the hero's have to sacrifice to eventually triumph over him. Cause, if you are going to do a time travel story, it should be that from the beginning. By starting in the third act and then seeing some of how Thanos gets the stones later in the film via time travel shenanigans, the structure of the film becomes much tighter and you can't be sure whether any death will be permanent or reversed via time travel.

Thanos motivation is far from silly. Sure, there are better ways to solve the problem of overpopulation when you have the power of the gauntled but the general idea that in face of limited resources a low population will enjoy a higher living standard than a high one is sound.

And imo the sacrifices of Thanos are as interesting to see as what the Avengers have to sacrifice. The Soul Stone part was quite a character building moment.

Personally I really liked that Red Skull is back. Ever since The First Avenger I have been saying that he was teleported and not killed.
I wonder if the Captain Marvel movie will play before or after Infinity War.

I assumed that since Strange said that he only saw 1 path to success, specifically asked Thanos to spare Stark, then surrendered the stone - that he set that 1 path he saw I'm motion.
I also assume he couldn't smirk as he surrendered the stone as that'd tip Thanos off.

Thanos isn't smart, he's just really powerfull. And insane. Hence his moniker in the comics as The Mad Titan.

As for morning any particular character? Why would you at this point? The story isn't over.

Why do you think this is a time travel story?

Derren said:

Thanos motivation is far from silly. Sure, there are better ways to solve the problem of overpopulation when you have the power of the gauntled but the general idea that in face of limited resources a low population will enjoy a higher living standard than a high one is sound.

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It isn't the least bit sound, it's completely mad. First off, populations grow to use the available resources. So Thanos killing half the Universe might lead to a generation or two having slightly higher standards of living as the amount of available capital is spread among the survivors (see America after WWII) but it's just as likely to completely cripple those worlds (see eastern Europe after WWII). In either case, the population will be back to whatever level the resources can sustain within a few decades at most.

So what we have is an insane villain. Which is fine, but not particularly interesting. The Avengers are facing him not because of choices they made or faults that they have, but simply because someone insane and powerful exists. There is nothing in Thanos' story that ties him to the Avengers. It could literally be any group of superheroes in the Galaxy facing him. Now, that could still lead to an interesting movie, as we see characters have to make impossible choices in the face of certain doom, and we get some of that, especially with Vision and Scarlet Witch. But will it stick? Who knows, because we don't know what the rules of the game are. Only Dr. Strange does. And that's why it's such a travesty that the film keeps that a secret from the audience

ccs said:

Thanos isn't smart, he's just really powerfull. And insane. Hence his moniker in the comics as The Mad Titan.

As for morning any particular character? Why would you at this point? The story isn't over.

Why do you think this is a time travel story?

Click to expand...

Agreed that he is the Mad Titan, just don't understand why in the pre release hype people kept talking about what an intelligent villain Thanos was and how people would be able to understand, if not approve, his reasoning. He's insane, his reasoning doesn't make any sense, and to me, it makes the character more distant. He's just a powerful random force, like a supernova. Ultron at least believed that by causing an extinction level event, it would lead to the next phase of evolution and forge something stronger. That's a believable motivation. Ego wanted the entire universe to be him. Killmonger wanted revenge and to protect his tribe. The point is, their motivations have there start in something real and understandable. Thanos does not. They would have been better off keeping his motivation that of trying to court Death.

The Soul Stone challenge was also weird. So, he had to sacrifice something he loved to get the stone. But how does he love Gamora if he's willing to kill her to get what he wants? That's kind of the opposite of love. Hmmm, makes me wonder if perhaps he doesn't really have the Soul Stone in the Gauntlet, but a fake.

If it's not a time travel story, how else do you bring back all the Avengers who just died? I guess it could be multiple universes as well, but really that's kind of the same thing. If it is just one timeline, and somehow they can use the real Soul Stone to bring everyone back, and this is all going according to Dr. Strange's vision for how to win, the film would still be better served by a little less mystery. As it is, I don't trust anything I saw, and that makes the film fall flat to me.

OB1 said:

It isn't the least bit sound, it's completely mad. First off, populations grow to use the available resources. So Thanos killing half the Universe might lead to a generation or two having slightly higher standards of living as the amount of available capital is spread among the survivors (see America after WWII) but it's just as likely to completely cripple those worlds (see eastern Europe after WWII). In either case, the population will be back to whatever level the resources can sustain within a few decades at most.

So what we have is an insane villain. Which is fine, but not particularly interesting. The Avengers are facing him not because of choices they made or faults that they have, but simply because someone insane and powerful exists. There is nothing in Thanos' story that ties him to the Avengers. It could literally be any group of superheroes in the Galaxy facing him. Now, that could still lead to an interesting movie, as we see characters have to make impossible choices in the face of certain doom, and we get some of that, especially with Vision and Scarlet Witch. But will it stick? Who knows, because we don't know what the rules of the game are. Only Dr. Strange does. And that's why it's such a travesty that the film keeps that a secret from the audience



Agreed that he is the Mad Titan, just don't understand why in the pre release hype people kept talking about what an intelligent villain Thanos was and how people would be able to understand, if not approve, his reasoning. He's insane, his reasoning doesn't make any sense, and to me, it makes the character more distant. He's just a powerful random force, like a supernova. Ultron at least believed that by causing an extinction level event, it would lead to the next phase of evolution and forge something stronger. That's a believable motivation. Ego wanted the entire universe to be him. Killmonger wanted revenge and to protect his tribe. The point is, their motivations have there start in something real and understandable. Thanos does not. They would have been better off keeping his motivation that of trying to court Death.

The Soul Stone challenge was also weird. So, he had to sacrifice something he loved to get the stone. But how does he love Gamora if he's willing to kill her to get what he wants? That's kind of the opposite of love. Hmmm, makes me wonder if perhaps he doesn't really have the Soul Stone in the Gauntlet, but a fake.

If it's not a time travel story, how else do you bring back all the Avengers who just died? I guess it could be multiple universes as well, but really that's kind of the same thing. If it is just one timeline, and somehow they can use the real Soul Stone to bring everyone back, and this is all going according to Dr. Strange's vision for how to win, the film would still be better served by a little less mystery. As it is, I don't trust anything I saw, and that makes the film fall flat to me.

Click to expand...

Have you even seen the movie? It doesn't look like it. Nothing ties the Avangers to Thanos? The Avangers were formed because of him and Thanos is specifically hunting one of them (two if you count Strange).

And the real world proves you wrong. Rich nations tend to have a low or even negative population growth despite easily being able to support more people while the poorer a nation is the higher the population growth tends to be.

And you can love something and still sacrifice it because it is necessary. For Thanos getting the stone is as otherwise he believes the universe will slowly die just like Titan did.

OB1 said:

The Soul Stone challenge was also weird. So, he had to sacrifice something he loved to get the stone. But how does he love Gamora if he's willing to kill her to get what he wants?

Click to expand...

You mean like the Scarlet Witch doesn't actually love Vision, because she sacrificed him to get what she wanted?

It isn't the least bit sound, it's completely mad. First off, populations grow to use the available resources. So Thanos killing half the Universe might lead to a generation or two having slightly higher standards of living as the amount of available capital is spread among the survivors (see America after WWII) but it's just as likely to completely cripple those worlds (see eastern Europe after WWII). In either case, the population will be back to whatever level the resources can sustain within a few decades at most.

Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that his methods are pretty flawed, but one thing to consider: When the resources are low, what happens?
- People die of starvation or thirst, leading to great suffering
- People fight over the resources, leading to violence, death, loss of more resources as they get destroyed in conflicts or used up to continue conflicts, and more suffering.

Thanos basically just removes enough people so there is no need to fight over resources. And he can repeat it, if the need arises again.

OB1 said:

Agreed that he is the Mad Titan, just don't understand why in the pre release hype people kept talking about what an intelligent villain Thanos was and how people would be able to understand, if not approve, his reasoning.

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Well, those people are about as smart as Thanos....
And probably think that the assorted Infinity stories in the comics are fantastic.

OB1 said:

He's insane, his reasoning doesn't make any sense, and to me, it makes the character more distant. He's just a powerful random force, like a supernova. Ultron at least believed that by causing an extinction level event, it would lead to the next phase of evolution and forge something stronger. That's a believable motivation. Ego wanted the entire universe to be him. Killmonger wanted revenge and to protect his tribe. The point is, their motivations have there start in something real and understandable. Thanos does not. They would have been better off keeping his motivation that of trying to court Death.

Click to expand...

On that we agree.

But movie Thanos HAS a goal. Now when voiced aloud it sounds stupid, & it's logic is alien & questionable. Remember, it's made by a not-smart insane alien. But it's a goal and he has a plan on how to accomplish it....

OB1 said:

The Soul Stone challenge was also weird. So, he had to sacrifice something he loved to get the stone. But how does he love Gamora if he's willing to kill her to get what he wants? That's kind of the opposite of love. Hmmm, makes me wonder if perhaps he doesn't really have the Soul Stone in the Gauntlet, but a fake.

Click to expand...

You're not familiar with the Bible (or other religions) are you. There's numerous examples of people having to sacrifice their children at the behest of their deities.

OB1 said:

If it's not a time travel story, how else do you bring back all the Avengers who just died?

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You missed the fact that one of the stones is called the Reality Stone?
Just re-order reality to your liking. Like Thanos did.

OB1 said:

I guess it could be multiple universes as well, but really that's kind of the same thing. If it is just one timeline, and somehow they can use the real Soul Stone to bring everyone back, and this is all going according to Dr. Strange's vision for how to win, the film would still be better served by a little less mystery. As it is, I don't trust anything I saw, and that makes the film fall flat to me.

Click to expand...

I think you've completely missed the fact this this story is not done. This is like reading the 1st several issues of an Infinity comic series. Or watching 1/2 of a 5 hour show. And then complaining that everything's not all wrapped up.
Tune in next summer for IW pt2 (or whatever they've changed the name to).

As I said in another thread, I was saddened we don't get to see Starlord reach Earth. Or get a moment where Tony and Steve have to interact and deal with what went down in Civil War.

Having read the comic I saw the ending coming. But still surprised they had the balls to go that route, even if the deaths will be undone. After all, we know Spider-Man, Black Panther, and Doctor Strange are going to get sequels. There's little tension there.

OB1 said:

I thought Thanos was supposed to be smart. Yet neither his motivations nor his actions showed INT 20. Litch level this guy is not. And because his motivation is so silly, he doesn't come close to as good a villain as Loki, Ultron, Killmonger or Hydra.

Click to expand...

He's smart, but he's not a genius. He's not the Lex Luthor smart villain. But a big, strong villain that isn't stupid and is surprisingly cunning. Devious enough to set a trap for the Guardians.

His motivation rather works. The purges in the population following the Black Death in the 14th Century reshaped Europe and ended serfdom. And the reduction of the workforce following WWII was also instrumental in advancing women's rights and civil rights. Massive cuts to population can have a positive effect on societies, especially when the infrastructure remains.

Think about what happens if, overnight, 150 million Americans just turn to dust.
Suddenly, there's job openings across the board. With fewer people for every occupation, everyone has their pick of employment and has an instant choice. They can ask for a higher salary and get it, because the demand is there. Meanwhile, because there's a desperate need for workers, there's increased incentive to release non-violent offenders and offer treatment to the mentally and physically ill to get them back in the job market. Discriminatory job practices drop because it's deeply unprofitable and you can't afford to be that picky in hiring.
Meanwhile, there's a massive turn around in politics. The bureaucracy is upended and there's not enough time to bother with the rules and regulations of a proper election. Anyone can get elected. This shakes the two party system.

And that's just one country. Half the world's dictators are gone. Half the people in charge of oppressing nations. Half the warlords. Half the drug barons.

His plan is insane. He is the Mad Titan. But it's also just crazy enough to work...

OB1 said:

It was a huge mistake not having Dr. Strange reveal the 1 way to win against Thanos to someone. By keeping that in the mystery box, it undercuts the deaths of every single character in the film, because you don't know if that is part of the plan or not.

Click to expand...

Well... yeah.
That's the point. We don't know.
Strange's comment before dying about "entering the end game" is clearly a hint that he knows what's coming and surrendering the stone was part of the plan. Keeping Iron Man alive was essential to their one chance at victory. But if he outright tells us the plan, there's zero tension.

OB1 said:

The minute Strange has the plan, the movie has to become a Heist Film to maintain narrative cohesion. Right now, I'm assuming that every single character killed in AIW will come back, and if some don't, that means that I won't really mourn them until the next film. It's weird.

Click to expand...

Would you really expect them to stay dead otherwise?

OB1 said:

And really, that leads me to this. Narratively, the film should have started in the third act. It's not interesting how Thanos get's the stones, it's interesting what the hero's have to sacrifice to eventually triumph over him. Cause, if you are going to do a time travel story, it should be that from the beginning. By starting in the third act and then seeing some of how Thanos gets the stones later in the film via time travel shenanigans, the structure of the film becomes much tighter and you can't be sure whether any death will be permanent or reversed via time travel.

Click to expand...

I suppose they could have done "snap" closer to the start of the film. That really is how the Infinity Gauntlet comic begins.
They could have started with him having the Power and Reality gems. We'd seen them before and a couple lines of dialogue can tweak how he gets them. And it could start with him acquiring the Soul stones. Then they could have had the next 10-15 minutes having Thanos getting the Space, Time, and Mind Stones.

But I think having half the universe dead has a little more impact when those characters are gone for a longer period. Plus, then you're speeding through the defeat of Doctor Strange and the Vision. I imagine Avengers 4 will be packed enough as it is without having to add in the extra 20 minutes of set-up.

The neat part is it allows the next film to be smaller. This one was big and massive with all hands on deck (except Hawkeye and Antman). Avengers 4 can really focus on Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, and Banner/ Hulk. (Possibly with Captain Marvel and Hawkeye.) Those heroes will be "retiring" after that movie because the actor's contracts are up. This allows it to be their swan song before the rest of the characters can potentially take over. And with a full movie, they have more time to show the losses being felt by the characters. Tony mourning Pepper and having to visit Aunt May. Cap feeling the loss of Bucky again, and remembering how he lost his nation to save him. Banner dealing with the Hulk's refusal to emerge.

OB1 said:

If it's not a time travel story, how else do you bring back all the Avengers who just died? I guess it could be multiple universes as well, but really that's kind of the same thing. If it is just one timeline, and somehow they can use the real Soul Stone to bring everyone back, and this is all going according to Dr. Strange's vision for how to win, the film would still be better served by a little less mystery. As it is, I don't trust anything I saw, and that makes the film fall flat to me.

Click to expand...

In the comic, Nebula gets ahold of the gauntlet and wishes everything back the way it was a day prior.
In the film this could translate to a year prior. Or everyone killed by Thanos.
Or it could be Tony remaking the universe. Perhaps with Cap. The two of them sacrificing themselves to fix the universe while balancing each other's impulses.

OB1 said:

[/B]

* Lot's of great Tier IV level moments in the battles.
* Lot's of great character interaction
* All words are made up
* Giant Dwarf! That's how you forge a freaking Legendary magic item!
* I don't want to go...


Now the not so positive
* I thought Thanos was supposed to be smart. Yet neither his motivations nor his actions showed INT 20. Litch level this guy is not. And because his motivation is so silly, he doesn't come close to as good a villain as Loki, Ultron, Killmonger or Hydra.

* It was a huge mistake not having Dr. Strange reveal the 1 way to win against Thanos to someone. By keeping that in the mystery box, it undercuts the deaths of every single character in the film, because you don't know if that is part of the plan or not. The minute Strange has the plan, the movie has to become a Heist Film to maintain narrative cohesion. Right now, I'm assuming that every single character killed in AIW will come back, and if some don't, that means that I won't really mourn them until the next film. It's weird.

* And really, that leads me to this. Narratively, the film should have started in the third act. It's not interesting how Thanos get's the stones, it's interesting what the hero's have to sacrifice to eventually triumph over him. Cause, if you are going to do a time travel story, it should be that from the beginning. By starting in the third act and then seeing some of how Thanos gets the stones later in the film via time travel shenanigans, the structure of the film becomes much tighter and you can't be sure whether any death will be permanent or reversed via time travel.

Click to expand...

Lots of character growth and interaction. Some could have been better or better explored. Pointing at you Banner/Hulk. I am guessing Hulk is scared of Thanos from how easily he was taken down but unclear.

Thanos is MAD as in insane. This reason for killing half of the universe is better than to impress Death (whom gets everyone eventually) and makes him more sympathic. I liked it.

Only 1 way of 14,000,000+ possibilities / futures lead to Thanos' defeat. Part of this is NOT explaining the idea to everyone. Thanos has to learn his mistake first to undo things. He is now on Soul World (inside the Soul Gem). Its time to think this over and bring in Adam Warlock.

I see your point on the time taken to gather the gems but this way we see he will do ANYTHING to get the gems and no one may stop him.

I thourghly enjoyed the movie and just wish I didn't have to wait a year for the final chapter.