Psion as Wizard archetype − Happy Fun Hour

LuisCarlos17f · May 2, 2018

I like the idea of mentalist, a hybrid arcane-psionic class.

About background, the magic needs "tools", like words, material focus, rituals, obeying taboos, and gestures. Psionics don't need that. If Naruto the ninja is moving the fingers for a "hand seal", then that is magic, not psionic power.

Wizards, sorcerers and warlocks are different because the wizards represents the study, the sorcerer the artistic talent and the warlock the power by contact and favour trade. (I miss vestiges with pact magic for warlocks, could the binder to be a subclass in the future?).

And some players want to a different class because it is like wearing a different dress, with her own style.

Ovarwa · May 2, 2018

Hi, It's kind of easy enough to make the Psion a subclass of any (every?) existing class with spellcasting as a core class feature. Then, over various levels, the subclass abilities can remove the need for VSM, add abilities that feel appropriately "psychic," etc. So a Psion (Wizard Subclass) might be able to dispense with his spellbook and VS at level 2 and gain a minor telepathic ability, and so on. A psion is then a wizard who develops his inner powers. And so on. Similar things can be done for Sorcerers, Bards, and even Rangers, Paladins and Druids. Warlocks and especially Clerics are a greater stretch. Anyway, Ken

AmerginLiath · May 2, 2018

AmerginLiath said:
I wonder how much the appeal of psionics in D&D is generational...

To add one point to my earlier thought, the changing idea of the multiverse in D&D from 2nd Edition on reflects the homogenization of both fantasy and the game world. Even looking only at the upcoming Tome of Foes (to say nothing of Planescape and Spelljammer), we see that the multiverse in D&D has for a generation been a collection of “D&D worlds” with levels of variations of the same conceits. Compare that to original blend, when one reads stories of the Lake Geneva campaign, of venturing to Oz or Murlynd getting his six guns from Boot Hill (complete with switching game books). When the conceits of fantasy involved multiverses like those of Moorcock, Zelazny, or Poul Anderson (where different worlds were totally different even if connected) and characters might travel to and adventure in a time or place totally different than there own (the Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court motif), that informed the game very differently than a more clearly Tolkienesque model where everywhere and when follow the same rules (including a single model of magic, the Weave).

Consider that the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon itself followed the logic of Three Hearts & Three Lions in sending the characters to another time and place to realize their adventures, something that the logic of the current (or even recent d20-era) game doesn’t consider.

Hexmage-EN · May 2, 2018

AmerginLiath said:
I wonder how much the appeal of psionics in D&D is generational, given the kitbashed nature of sources that played into the early game, as well as the diversity of “fantasy” (still drawing heavily from sword & sorcery stories that featured early-20th century psychic pseudoscience as it’s magic) into the early-mid 1980s. By he emergence of 2nd Edition, the very face of fantasy literature and popular entertainment had shifted to a more homogenized form (compare Excalibur to any Arthur film in the next two decades) and D&D sources began to be actual D&D books like Dragonlance and FR (which were basically cod-Tolkien). As such, the idea of magic wasn’t even truly Vancian any longer in the gamer imagination, inasmuch as the gamer no longer read Vance and imagined the energy of magic in the pseudo-psionic way that he (and later Gygax) imagined it.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that (to borrow a phrase), but it’s a different way of considering the influences upon the game and the cultural and literary influences upon the gamer (what are the images borrowed from media that the new gamer uses to imagine what they’re doing when learning the game? Ditto-era Dr. Strange comics and Harry Potter books are very different teachers of what magic looks like). But, in the end, as a generation of gamers grows up on the LotR trilogy instead of Excalibur, that’s going to alter how they see fantasy coming to the table, and that includes a psionic system that builds off literature that was popular in the 50s-80s but hasn’t been in many current players’ lifetime.

I find your analysis very interesting. I'm aware that in the past there wasn't such a strong division between sci-fi and fantasy, but as a person born in 1988 that division had already been long established. The closest thing to a sci-fi/fantasy setting I was exposed to as a child was the cartoon Thundarr the Barbarian, in which sorcery returned to post-apocalyptic Earth.

At some point I somehow got the idea that psychic powers were just a modern understanding of magic, divorced from spirits or rituals and linked only to the mind. Seeing psionics in Dungeons and Dragons therefore felt strange, as it felt like it was reinventing the wheel for no real benefit.

I looked at the 4E take on psionics and found it marginally more interesting. For one thing, monks were warriors who used psionics to enhance their skills (despite not using the Power Point system all the other psionic classes possessed), and if I recall correctly the lore of the Dawn War setting stated that the first monks were taught by angels, who used the word "ki" to refer to the power of the mind influencing the body. Further, psionics was explicitly referred to as psionic magic, an attempt to tie it to fantasy (as it is understood now, at least). This psionic magic was explained as being linked to the Far Realm, whose inhabitants primarily use it instead of the other forms of magic (which in 4E were Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow, Elemental, and Psionic).

Personally I would still rather leave Psionics as the "magic" system of Gamma World or some other modern/future/post-apocalyptic setting.

AmerginLiath · May 2, 2018

I would build psionics for Dark Sun, that being the setting still built upon sword & sorcery conventions (albeit channeled through 90s angst) rather than try to build out a system for 5e that works in every setting and ends up being either flavorless or too alien — as well as either too powerful or not powerful enough as a corollary to magic.

But Gamma World is also a good option, if Dark Sun isn’t being developed as a setting (I’m still uncertain to what degree distinctive settings can really be fleshed out in 5e, given the build assumptions of the current game). Looking at how GW was done in the 4e era makes me wonder if the likes of Dark Sun or Birthright could be built as D&D-adjacent games.

(BTW, I probably sound like I’m older than I actually am saying all that stuff; I was born in 1980, but my twin brother and I were the youngest of our family and I grew up playing 1st Edition even as a small children in campaigns that my older brother ran for us and our friends, as well as inheriting a lot of my different brothers’ older fantasy and sci-fi books!)

Tales and Chronicles · May 2, 2018

LuisCarlos17f said:
I like the idea of mentalist, a hybrid arcane-psionic class.

About background, the magic needs "tools", like words, material focus, rituals, obeying taboos, and gestures. Psionics don't need that. If Naruto the ninja is moving the fingers for a "hand seal", then that is magic, not psionic power.

And that would all be well and good if the Psion was in the PHB and subsequent books would be built with the idea that there's a type of magic that requires different features to interact with. But for now, if psionic powers are impossible to detect and cant be affected by magical counters, there's a lot of monsters in the MM that are render useless because they have absolutely no way to counter or impact the manifesting of psionic powers. That not disturbing when fighting wolves and goblins, but it is ridiculous to think that a lich would be unable to counter the powers of a psion while she could protect herself against weapon and spells.

It could be a strange tell, the 4e luminous circle thing over the head or glowing eyes, but it needs to be spotted and interacted with. If not it render many classes obsolete just by existing. Even more if they go with the disciplines that are pure copy-cat of existing spells, so it becomes magic-without-the-restrictions. Why would somebody pick a wizard over a Mystic that can manifest exactly the same powers (under different names), but with d8 HP, armor, no spell components etc?

Tony Vargas · May 2, 2018

vincegetorix said:
And that would all be well and good if the Psion was in the PHB and subsequent books would be built with the idea that there's a type of magic that requires different features to interact with. But for now, if psionic powers are impossible to detect and cant be affected by magical counters, there's a lot of monsters in the MM that are render useless because they have absolutely no way to counter or impact the manifesting of psionic powers. That not disturbing when fighting wolves and goblins, but it is ridiculous to think that a lich would be unable to counter the powers of a psion while she could protect herself against weapon and spells.

That's a good point, and shows that leaving the psion (or, at least, some provision for psionics) out of the PH (or, at least, DMG), and thus the 'core' game was a mistake. That mistake should not, however, be compounded.

For one thing, it's essentially saying: "Psionics, especially psionics-that-aren't-magic aren't a big enough, traditional enough deal to be in the PH, but, don't worry, 5e will have lots of options!" ...years pass... "Psionics aren't in the core game, so psionics, especially psionics-that-aren't-magic, should never be allowed into the game in any form."

That said, the concern is valid, and a reason to have psionics-as-magic on the table, as a way to more easily integrate psionic characters into a core-game campaign that the DM doesn't want to otherwise adapt - for instance, if you just have one player desperate to play a psion, and don't want to do a lot of work re-tooling the campaign, he can just be an oddball magic-wielder. It is not, however, reason to take psionics-are-different off the table, they just need to note how to adapt to adding a new form of supernatural power to the campaign - changing some monsters from magical to psionic, deciding how magic & psioinics interact, etc...

Hexmage-EN · May 2, 2018

The problems I see for psionic characters are that:

1) they are singled out as different in a multiverse that already has diverse spellcasters.
2) they can't just use the same spells as everyone else
3) they aren't firmly rooted into the setting; sorcerers are descended from magical entities or are mutated by magic, warlocks make pacts with supernatural entities, clerics worship gods, druids revere nature spirits and/or gods, etc.

So psions are like sorcerers in that they have an innate gift, but are unlike them in that their gift doesn't have any link to draconic/fey/whatever sources.

Gadget · May 3, 2018

I'm just going to focus on what no else has commented on, namely MM's remarks about the current spell casting system (hopefully they weren't taken too out of context by the OP):

Yaarel said:
There are enough spells to substantiate a psion wizard. Difficulties with spells include:
• The flavor of a spell is often awkward, such as the rope in rope trick, the hand in mage hand, the crown in crown of madness. The effect is fine − especially with a different flavor. As part of Subtle Spell, the psion could have a feature that can officially alter the flavor of spells.

I've long had misgivings about these very things, even setting aside psionics. I figured they were there to not make magic too easy or subtle, but I don't think they are necessary.

Yaarel said:
• Telepathic communication spells are weak and often many levels higher than they are worth. All of them combined (!) should be about spell level 2: Sending, Telepathy, Telepathy Language (Monster Manual), Tongues, Telepathic Bond. It would be appropriate to give full-on telepathy to the psion as a feature at wizard level 2.

Yes! Too bad they couldn't have come to this realization before they released 5e.

Yaarel said:
• Divination spells are often obsolete. Many old-school divination spells are today handled by skill checks (legend lore/history, find path/survival, animal friendship/animal handling, detect thoughts/insight, also as skill checks, glibness, detect trap, locate object, locate creature).

I can kind of get behind this, though I think some of the spells go beyond a skill check. The system is kind of wish-washy about the whole thing. Which spells does non-detection protect against? See Invisibility? They could definitely make most of these spell a skill check/ritual type thing.

Yaarel said:
• Divination as DM-gives-a-hint spells (augury, divination, commune, contact other plane) should instead be a ritual-like mechanic per long rest, being unworthy of a spell but with need to prevent spamming.

Indeed. I have long thought along similar lines.

Yaarel said:
• Telekinesis needs to be a cantrip whose strength improves while leveling.

This could be very interesting. There's really no need to have a visible hand appear as part of Mage Hand, for instance, just restrict it from interacting with creatures unless you're an Arcane Trickster.

Yaarel said:
• Phasing thru objects and etherealness needs to be more normal at lower levels. 4e has good ways to do this.

Similar to the way Xanathars introduced many elemental spells to D&D 5e, a future book can introduce many psion spells.

I can't wait for this. Similar to others' thoughts, I kinda feel a Sorcerer with a special spell list and meta-magic could handle the role better.

cbwjm · May 3, 2018

greylurk said:
I tend to agree that Psionics could just as easily be a "form" of magic, and the psionic "disciplines" as just a different way of looking at the schools of magic. Having a list of spells tagged as "psionic" and just create a wizard subclass that interacts specially with those psionic spells, that feels like it would fit with D&D much better, possibly giving them dispel resistance, or counterspell resistance? However, the old 3e "crystal power" psionics and the 2e and 1e psionics never felt appropriate to D&D.

I really liked the 2e version of psionics. I was never one of those who were all "You got sci-fi in my fantasy!" So I thought they fit in really quite well with DnD. I was too impressed with 3e psionics, mainly because they made it too similar to spellcasting. Giving powers a "spell" level kind of ruined it for me.

Psion as Wizard archetype − Happy Fun Hour

LuisCarlos17f

Legend

Ovarwa

Explorer

AmerginLiath

Adventurer

Hexmage-EN

Legend

AmerginLiath

Adventurer

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Tony Vargas

Legend

Hexmage-EN

Legend

Gadget

Adventurer

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

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