D&D 5E Can a Critical Hit miss?

Oofta

Legend
My take on this:
I would have the goblins attempt to stealth into the bushes. If successful, then they remain hidden and initiative starts with a surprise round whenever they decide to attack. If the stealth fails, initiative starts then, since that is when both parties become aware of each other.

Maybe by purposely making a little noise before disappearing into the bushes they figured they could draw someone in close enough to get a shot off without disadvantage. Or they just panicked and didn't think of hiding until after they were certain they couldn't be seen.

Technically the goblins probably could have gotten surprise, but what's more fun and evocative? How many movies have there been where the protagonists know there's something in the bushes, just not exactly what.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
This kind of gets into philosophy of "when does combat start", and encounter distance which I think can be kind of vague.

Obviously if there is an attack imminent, combat starts. But let's talk about a scenario I could envision without getting caught up in details for a moment.

The adventurers are walking down a road at night, torches in hand or relying on the full moon overhead. There are goblins ahead by the side of the road, but they are in deep shadow and unseen and sitting quietly and for the moment unheard. The goblins are obscured only by darkness.

The goblins see the PCs approaching a moment before they will be seen and scurry into the bushes. Now that they are obscured by the heavy brush they hide.

The PCs heard the movement but did not see the goblins scurrying away because they were not close enough to be visible. The PCs do not know what caused the sound because by the time the PCs are close enough to see, the goblins are hidden in the heavy brush.

This is a pretty typical scene in games and movies, hearing something scrambling about in the darkness but by the time you shine the light or turn around it's gone. Exactly where initiative starts is where you get into more of a gray area and one that I sometimes hand-wave because narrative, flow and scene are more important than the rules.

Anyway, that's how I roll. Rule? Whatever.

I think that's reasonable. We just don't know with certainty whether that's what happened in the OP's scenario. If that's what happened, then I would say that combat begins, with no chance of surprise, after PC1 tries to perceive what made the noise.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
OK, I'll bite -- here's my breakdown, with the caveat that some of my responses have already been noted by other posters in this thread.

Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide.

OK, first up, a fair number of things we must assume, because they're not mentioned in the scenario:

1) The party is travelling at a Normal pace; as such, they aren't using Stealth (which they can only do if travelling at a Slow pace), and also have no penalties to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores (which happens if they are travelling at a Fast pace). (BR, pp.63-64)

2) Nobody in the party has darkvision, and the torch is the only source of illumination (there is no moon or other significant light source in the area). As such, within 20 feet of the torch is bright illumination, and a further 20 feet from that is dim illumination (BR, p.50); beyond that is darkness and no PC is able to see. (The goblins have darkvision, so can see as if in dim light out to 60 feet, except in the 40 foot radius area lit by the torch, which counts as bright light for them. SRD, pp. 260,318)

3) The "heavy foliage" (which we will call 'dense foliage', as that matches the text in the Basic Rules) causes the area outside the path to be impenetrable to sight; any creature trying to see within the foliage is effectively blind (i.e.: "suffers from the blinded condition"; BR, p.65). Although darkness can cause an area to be heavily obscured, light does not eliminate obscurement for sources that are not based on a simple absense of light, such as opaque fog or dense foliage (Ibid.), so the party's light source will not allow them to see into the foliage.

4) The path, not the foliage, is 30 feet wide.

Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention.

Either this is by DM fiat (the goblins might have chosen to make noise to draw in the PCs, for example), or the DM has determined that at least one PC has a sufficiently high passive Wisdom (Perception) to beat the goblins' Steath scores while they are hiding on the side of the road.

PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails.

I'm curious what this Perception check was for. If the party had previously noticed the goblins based on the party's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, then it would seem unnecessary for this PC to have to make another roll. However, it's possible the goblins deliberately made noise (by, say, throwing a rock) in such a way that it wouldn't give away their specific position and/or this PC doesn't have the high passive Perception that successfully noticed the goblins earlier. If either of these situations exist, then the check is valid, though it should be noted that, as the goblins are explicitly in the foliage, there is no change to see them, only to possibly hear them.

Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1.

At this point, initiative has to be rolled, as there is no real support in the combat rules for making an attack outside of the initiative sequence. ("When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.", BR, p.69) If the DM rules that the PCs are surprised, then it doesn't really matter if initiative is rolled before or after the goblins attack, since the PCs can do nothing in the opening round anyway, but there must be an initiative order following the goblin attack.

Let's assume that this was done, and PC#2 has the initiative in the first non-surprise round.

PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success.

This is something of a grey area -- as noted, since the goblins were firing from heavy obscurement, PC#2 is considered blinded when trying to see into that obscurement, and thus cannot succeed on a Wisdom (Perception) roll to find the goblins' position. ("A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.", BR, p.105) However, in looking for where the bolts came from, this gives the PC an alternative -- perhaps she's noticing the arc of the crossbow bolt that struck PC#1, and looking for rustling in the bushes or other traces that would give away the place where the goblin's bolt exited the bushes and likely the space in the bushes where the goblin was hiding when it fired; I'd allow it, but this isn't a Wisdom (Perception) task -- the character is using information and processing it to reach a conclusion, which to me is an Intellgence (Investigation) check to figure out where the goblin must have been when firing. Note as well that an Intelligence (Investigation) check does not interact with the level of light and/or obscurement, though the DM could rule that even this check would fail automatically if PC#2 were unable to use even dim light to see where the bolt came from (in order to draw a conclusion based on evidence, one must be able to perceive the evidence, after all).

Let's presume that PC#2 was asked to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check instead, and succeeded. However, there's a second question that then must be answered: does this count as taking the Search action, which covers both Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) checks? I would rule that it does, since the player explicitly asked if she could figure something out, and "[w]hen you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something." (BR, p.72) After taking an action to Search, the character cannot then make an attack in the same round.

PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20.

What was the second roll? The character is firing into the foliage against an unseen target (remember, the character is blinded with respect to targets in heavy obscurement), and thus must roll her attack at disadvantage. If the second roll is not also a '20', then the point is moot, since the attack is not a critical hit.

Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

This would have happened during the surprise round, and the goblins clearly could have moved after attacking, so I'd allow this. Also, if the goblins' Dexterity (Stealth) roll were good enough, nobody in the party would have noticed, so there's no obligation to tell the players something their characters were unable to perceive. Note that all the discussion about what circumstances must exist for the goblins to attempt to Hide are moot, as the rule on Hiding explicitly gives the DM the authority to determine "when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." (BR, p.60) A DM may choose to use prior edition rules to help inform what circumstances are appropriate (or to apply penalties, such as in Saelorn's recollection), but is not required to. Since the goblins are moving and not trying to hide in the exact position they previously attacked from, I wouldn't even consider this an exploitative use of the Hiding rule.

How do you, as DM, rule that Crit?

What crit? This is no more a crit than if the character made an attack roll against an illusory enemy and rolled a '20'; if a PC attacks nothing, it doesn't matter what number comes up on the die.

Hope this helps!

--
Pauper
 
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shadowoflameth

Adventurer
The player knew the exact spot. That means that the enemy stealthing away doesn't get to trump the knowing. There's a hit on whatever was there when the hero succeeded in knowing the right square even if the hero can't see the result. Plus fun is rule zero. It's fun to consider 'OK, You shot into what you perceived to be the right square but heard a cry of paid from farther away that you expected. You can't see what you hit, but you know that you may find an arrow wound in that enemy later.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
[MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION]: Good analysis. The only minor things with which I would take issue are (1) referring to the first round as the "surprise round" which risks confusing this game with other editions and the methods of resolution therein; and (2) the resolution of PC2's action is, I think, covered under noticing creatures that are hidden which doesn't necessarily require sight. How this might exactly be resolved comes down to what the player described which is why, in part, questions absolutely suck in my opinion and should never be considered action declarations! I think it could be a Wisdom (Perception) or Intelligence (Investigation) check as you say, both of which fall under the Search action.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Here is how I break this down:

Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide. Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention.

Rule 1: "You give away your position if you make noise." So, PCs know the position of the enemy who made the noise. Automatically. No roll necessary.

PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails.

They already know where that foe who made the noise is at. No check needed.

Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1.

The attacker is in heavy foliage, which triggers

Rule 2: "areas such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage - blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area."

and

Rule 3: "A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."

Perception does not require sight, so no skill check automatically fails here. However, the attack roll the enemy made with the crossbows should be done at Advantage per this rule.

The attack also triggers:

Rule 4 "when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success.

No roll should be required. PC automatically knows the foes location per Rule 4 because foe made attack.

PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20.

Because foe is in dense foliage, the PC's attack roll should be done at disadvantage, per Rule 3 above.

Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

Their position was already revealed multiple times (first with the noise, next with the attack) so the PCs perceive the foe (even though they cannot see the foe). To "stealth away" they have to be not perceived first. IE they'd have to move to a new location which is also covered with dense foliage and then attempt a hide action again...and the PCs currently perceive them so they know when they're no longer in that spot. So I would not have called for an attack roll prior to informing the PCs that the foe they perceived after the crossbow attack is no longer perceived in that spot. The PCs can now attempt to attack it anyway, but they must 1) designate a new location to attack (due to blinded condition), and 2) make their attack roll at disadvantage due to the dense foliage (due to blinded condition).
 
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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide. Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention. PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails. Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1. PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success. PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20. Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

How do you, as DM, rule that Crit?

Since it doesn't seem likely that I'll get an answer to my question, and understanding that you aren't the DM so may not know the answer, I'll assume the source of the noise is irrelevant and that the noise was mere color meant to draw the PCs into the encounter. In that light, I can tell you how the instance of play you describe might have played out at my table.

DM: You hear a noise off the side of the path up ahead.

PC#1: I go towards the source of the noise to see if I notice any hidden threats.

DM: Roll a Wisdom (Perception) check.

<<DM rolls Dexterity (Stealth) checks for the two enemies, which both beat or tie PC#1's check and the passive Perception scores of the entire party, determining that the party is surprised.>>

DM: You don't notice anything interesting until two crossbow bolts come flying towards you out of the dense woods. You are all surprised. Everyone make a Dexterity check for your initiative.

<<DM rolls initiative for the two enemies and they both beat all the PCs' results. Then the DM makes attack and damage rolls for the two enemies.>>

DM: The crossbow bolts hit PC#1, inflicting x damage. You all notice there are two creatures in the dense woods who fired the shots. You're all surprised so unless anyone has any reactions they want to use after their turn, we'll move on to round 2.

<<crickets chirping>>

DM: Okay, at the top of round 2, the two unseen creatures in the woods become very quiet.

<<Rolls Dexterity (Stealth) checks, again beating or tieing the PCs' passive Perception scores.>>

DM: And you can no longer determine whether they are still where they were or not. PC#2, you're next in initiative order. What do you do?

PC#2: I try to pinpoint their location by listening for them.

DM: Make a Wisdom (Perception) check.

<<PC#2's roll beats the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of the two enemies.>>

DM: You notice them in their new location about 30 feet to the right of where they were.

PC#2: I point out their location to the other members of the party.

DM: OK, wizard, you're up next. What do you do?

PC wizard: I cast fireball on that location.

So the main difference in my adjudication is that the enemies give away their location when their attacks hit PC#1, so PC#2 doesn't need to search for them until they've become hidden again and searches for them in their new hiding place, not in the spot in which they already revealed they were. Also, because PC#2 uses her action to search for the enemies, she can't also shoot her bow at them and leaves it for the wizard to target their location with an AoE.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Direct quote from the hide rule, "you give away your position if you make noise"

A badly worded line which doesn't actually resolve the issue here.

p194;

"When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss,..."

So you can in fact give away your position but not be at the location you made the noise because you are moving for instance, and in that circumstance the GM is the only one who knows where the target actually is.

It is unfortunate that the rules on Stealth are effectively dispersed in the rules and use different language, and the rules difference between location and position isn't properly explained, not to mention that as per the example used, you could move 30ft, knock a vase over in the 1st 5ft of movement, and thus still be away from the position of the noise when the person attacking shoots or whatever, meaning and auto-miss.

Only the GM in this instance knows whether the attackers moved after the noise was made, and wouldn't have told the players. It isn't even clear if all of the attackers made the noise. The noise could have come from 100ft away and the attack from 50ft. No way for the characters to know.

If as a GM you rule that for instance, someone 300ft away in complete darkness in a canyon with a single noise gives away their precise location accurately enough to be shot at with only disadvantage then you can expect the sneaking player to get pretty upset at your ruling as a volley of arrows somehow reliably homes in on them. The rules of course allow for the GM to rule on it based on what they now of the movement (or not) involved. Seen it loads of times with enemies moving around within a Fog or Darkness spell even without stealth, and nobody ever challenged it as a bad ruling.

The rules are utilitarian, the rulings of a GM are situational. The RAW actually allows for those who have been heard to not be where you shoot, but also point out that the position of the noise maker is given away by a noise. The difference between the 2 is determined by what the GM knows is going on in the darkness etc., not by rules which read both ways depending on which lines you read, which is why I used the word 'precise' in my original post.
 
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Yes

Explorer
If the enemy wasn't there anymore, the purpose of the attack roll you asked wasn't to check if the player had hit or missed. You asked as not to betray the information that the enemy had moved by just saying "Don't roll - you hit nothing". The player can't crit if it's a mock check.

What you could have done, if you wanted to reward the player for having rolled a 20 anyways was to say "Your aim was true. The shot was perfect. You know that if there was a goblin there, he'd have been badly wounded, but you don't hear the thump of a body falling or even a grunt of pain. You know they're not here anymore."
 

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