The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

5ekyu said:

"Human nature's funny, that way. The accepted way to do something can be just terrible "

As a direct response to an observation about how many people run games all the time in spite of other people gripes about the game, this paeticular response is illuminating.

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It's just an illustration of the logical fallacy of appealing to tradition or common practice. It's not that always playing the same imbalanced game the same unfair way is necessarily injurious to all or even some involved, let alone ethically bankrupt or morally repugnant, it's merely not proof that the game is already perfect.

I don’t take seriously the input of anyone who is overwhelmed by GWM or SS feats.

MoonSong said:

Speaking of that, I have a problem with chess. I'm kind of at the higher end of average skill, but I'm still average. So any actual serious player can trash the floor with me, but odds are any random person will grow frustrated playing with me. I've even tried to deliberately pay less attention to give my opponents a better chance, but turns out that boys feel like I'm cherry tapping them so they get frustrated even more quickly. So I've basically ran out of people to play with.

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I have a college buddy I visit in Texas every year, and we always play a couple of chess games; it's become a tradition. We're pretty well matched.

Sometimes I think about going out and improving my chess game. I'm sure that I could get significantly better with just a moderate amount of study. But then those games wouldn't be well matched any more, and I'd have lessened my enjoyment of them for the sake of building up a skill that benefits me not at all.

Sometimes there is value in *not* getting better.

FlyingChihuahua said:

Yep. Basically any game with a choice that means something to the game will be imbalanced.

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Not only that, but the degree of imbalance is directly proportional to the number of meaningful choices. It's the main thing that a class-and-level system (like D&D) has over a point-based system (like GURPS), is that most of the variables are tied to a small handful of decision points, so there's very little you can do to break the power curve.

Saelorn said:

Not only that, but the degree of imbalance is directly proportional to the number of meaningful choices. It's the main thing that a class-and-level system (like D&D) has over a point-based system (like GURPS), is that most of the variables are tied to a small handful of decision points, so there's very little you can do to break the power curve.

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Yeah, and honestly? There is nothing wrong with imbalance, as long as the game is fun. (I'm reminded of this Web DM video.)

I'm beginning to realize that Zapp might like playing 4e instead. That's fine, go play 4e, it's pretty good from the game standpoint, and it generally leaves the roleplaying stuff to be decided by the players, which can be either a plus or a minus, depending. Just please stop jumping in on everything and saying "Actually the way you're playing the game is wrong, if you don't make a Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert Battlemaster then you are actively dragging down everyone else in the group".

I am just trying to figure out how a sorcerer can twin fire bolt all the time. It does still take a sorcery point right?

hello, this is the first time i have seen this argument as i dont frequent the forums, mostly the news part of the website. but honestly as fresh eyes on this supposed last word, it just sounds like you might not have a very good DM for you. i understand you think DM's might need to tweak monsters to deal with certain feats or power levels of PC builds, but to me that is the whole point of being a DM. now sure a DM who buys the published adventures and runs them straight with no input from themselves might run into trouble with certain PC's i give you that.

for me, and a lot of people i have gamed with over many years, the DM is not just the storyteller and NPC runner, they are the balance, they are the architects of fun. you have a group who min/max's and "abuses" GWM and SS, the whole point that you have a HUMAN running the game and not some math computer or such, is that humans can design and create scenario's equally challenging to the player.

now if you want a game system that did all that for you and was "balanced" then you wouldnt have a human DM, because when you introduce humans to any situation, by default it becomes un-perfect. sure 2+2 will always be 4, except when a human decides it isnt. meaning a DM can create a world where 2+2=5. i know this is a silly example, but i am basically saying that if you feel the game you play in or run is unbalanced, you have the tools to fix it. you dont have to ban any skills feats powers or anything. if you think magic PC's are too powerful because of cantrips after they have run out of spell slots, the warrior is still going strong. maybe monsters fear magic people and concentrate on them, maybe you run more encounters in a day so the magic user has nothing but those cantrips to rely on. (3 eldritch blasts at 1d10+5 is equaled out to the fighter attacking 3 times, and because of his weapon focus gets +10 damage. kind of equal to me). these are only a small few of many examples of how to deal with PC's. so many tools for a DM to run the game STILL within the rules and yet present challenge.

now if your "final word" really just boils down to, "without DM input the game is unbalanced, fight me" then i would agree with you 100%. unfortunately i have been part of super min/max games where the DM equally challenged us, and in mostly RP PC games where the DM has equally challenged us outside of combat. so i honestly suggest you find a new DM who fits your play-style and understands, or if you are the DM, stop being so lazy.

i'll go back to lurking the news now, but wanted to share my 2cp.

I wish more effort with the weapon based feats was spent on making lesser used weapons more appealing and on the non combat front there was more sideways growth.

Why are all of you still replying to this thread? The final word was already given in the first post. Lock the thread already, it was over the moment it started!

Note the Op is one of the hardcore 4E fans hence why he is basically trolling.

Nevertheless there is a disparity in power for a few feats relative to the other feats. Those are the -5/+10 feats and warcaster/resilient con perhaps the healer feats are the worst example.