D&D 5E Dropping to 0 HP - Alternate Rule

Laurefindel said:

@OB1: I think it's the save/no save for exhaustion levels that people find fiddly, but I think i better understand the intentions that underline your hourserule now.

Personally, I like tying exhaustion to doing below 0 hp. I find the "fully functional to unconscious and likely to die to fully functional again" in less than 6 seconds to be a mood killer. It has nothing to do with realism (that is not something I aim for), i just find it too gamey and not cinematic enough for the type of game i want to play. Exhaustion-as-injuries (or variations on the theme) at least brings a non-binary element on the state of the characters, but it does change the assumption of how D&D is played (and you acknowledge that when saying that this is not for every group).

I think if you find a way to bring unconsciousness and possible deterioration if left-for-dead into the houserule, you'll get something consistent with what we see in movies and novels. As long as you achieve a good balance between the WFRP "naked dwarf syndrome" (aha, that's the 15th time you try to bring me down with no success!), unconsciousness (sorry Joe, you can't play until someone takes care of you), and the death spiral (oh yeah, you can play, but oh boy will you ever be gimped!) that is right for your group, you should be fine.

good luck!

'findel

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Where to balance this is exactly what I’m trying to finalize here. Like you, I think using exhaustion levels leads to a more cinematic feel.

At this point, I’m definitely changing exhaustion level 6 to be unconscious with the need to make a Death Saving Throw every 6 seconds (or 60 seconds?) if at 0HP and every hour if above 0HP. Exhaustion 7 will then be Death.

As for the fidly bits, I think I might just make any action require a Death Saving Throw while at 0 HP and get rid of the dodge reaction mechanic. While I liked the idea that you could focus on defending or escaping while at 0 HP, it maybe feels a bit too gamey. Instead, players will just have to balance the risk of taking dodge or disengage and making a Death Saving Throw vs simply running and potentially getting an opportunity attack against them.

As that change makes things a bit more deadly, I’ll think I might add the ability to spend half your level in hit die immediately following a short or long rest to remove 1 level of exhaustion. That should help mitigate against one unlucky encounter leading to a certain death spiral as well.
[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] - Death at 0 HP or say -Con HP is something I considered as well and would certainly help with the goal of making combat riskier, but those are still very binary states. I’m looking for something a bit more cinematic and blurry to give room for the PCs to have that last desperate chance to push on when it really counts.

OB1 said:

[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] - what do you see as the complicated part of this? Seems straightforward to me but perhaps I’m missing something or not articulating the rule correctly.

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It adds a bunch of new action conditions, which trigger a saving throw that has a dynamic difficulty and needs to be calculated on-the-fly, in order to invoke the chart of fatigue conditions which is otherwise only referenced in extremely dramatic out-of-combat situations (and is detailed appropriately).

It's just not as straight-forward as the existing alternative. I don't mean that it's unplayable, by any means. I just mean that it's weirdly detailed for a situation that's going to show up in the middle of combat. You could compare it to the 3E grappling rules, which were also technically functional, even though nobody could remember them and they slowed the game to a crawl whenever they came up.

OB1 said:

That said, for the next campaign I’m running, I’m looking for a slightly grittier style, with the heroes constantly pushed to their limits and having to constantly compromise their goals just to stay alive.

To this end, I’m looking for rules that encourage finding other solutions to encounters than combat. Retreat from combat that isn’t going overwhelmingly well except when the stakes are worth the risk. And when they do engage? Go hard and fast to minimize the chance of anyone dropping to zero. And make getting into the next combat all the more risky.

I want to make combat feel risky and dangerous.

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Slow healing would solve your problem. Throw out every mention of Hit Dice, and set the heal rate to 1-3 points per night. Change the Life domain channel divinity (and other sources of easy healing) to grant temporary hit points.

Make it so that getting stabbed once will put a damper on your whole day, because every hit brings you closer to death via HP loss. That's why Hit Points exist in the first place. There's no need to drag in the fatigue rules.

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Saelorn said:

Slow healing would solve your problem. Throw out every mention of Hit Dice, and set the heal rate to 1-3 points per night. Change the Life domain channel divinity (and other sources of easy healing) to grant temporary hit points.

Make it so that getting stabbed once will put a damper on your whole day, because every hit brings you closer to death via HP loss. That's why Hit Points exist in the first place. There's no need to drag in the fatigue rules.

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My problem with this solution is that it tends just to encourage needing a strong healer in the party if you have one, problem solved.

It’s clear that the action rules as I had them before were too fiddly. I’m simplifying by making any action or reaction while at 0HP require a DC 10 Death Save. As for taking damage, it’s really just the concentration mechanic reskinned, so I don’t expect that to cause to many problems adopting.

It is still more complicated than Death Save failure/success tracking, but I expect it will come up in less than 10% of combats, which should mitigate any gameplay slowing effects.

Li Shenron said:

@OB1 is going to use exhaustion levels as an alternative to simply dropping unconscious (i.e. unable to act). How is being unable to act more fun than still having a few rounds of action worth to change the tide of the battle?

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Let me ask you the same question, but looking at the full impact of this.

How could a few rounds of actions in a single combat possibly be as much fun as sucking on all in-combat and out-of-combat action for several days?

How can a failed death save, with no long term consequences and easy-to-stand up with ANY healing compare to cumultive and crushing penalties for AT LEAST the rest fo the day, assuming no more death saves? And yes, a single level of exhaustion where every single ability/skill check now has disadvantage does count as a crushing penalty.

When looked at from that perspective, it seems clear.

Li Shenron said:

Sure, with the exhaustion penalties it won't be easy to do so, but you still have a larger amount worth of actions to reach your goal (win the fight, or flee) compared to the standard rules.

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Again, you ignore half the picture. IN THIS COMBAT, you MAY have more actions (you need not lose any actions to 0 HP, depending on when healing comes in), but ALL of your actions for this fight and ever other scene will be penalized. So what's better - a poential of few rounds, this encoutner and every other scene during the day running at reduced potential.

Li Shenron said:

I rather think that the main problem of this house rule is how slow it is to shrug off the exhaustion levels afterwards (and secondary, it's a bit too complex). Thus, comparing with how healing a single HP brings you back to conscious with the standard rules, I think the OP should consider either adding a general rule that exhaustion levels can be cured by any healing spells, or that they go away more quickly, for example:

- every spell that heals HP also heals 1 level of exhaustion per spell level
- exhaustion levels are regained naturally at the rate of 1 per short rest

Note that normally exhaustion heals slowly because it's most of the times an effect coming from long-term activities such as forced march, prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures etc... mainly stuff related to travelling or downtime. Instead, this near-death exhaustion is quick and occurs in combat. If your campaign normally doesn't feature exhaustion-risk situations, then you don't have much to worry about making exhaustion heal quickly. If it does, then just give this new type of exhaustion another name so that the standard exhaustion is not affected.

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Yes, completely changing the recovery amounts from Exhaustion so that it is not long term crippling will address the points that it is long term crippling. When you change the relevant part of the mechanic, you can reevaluate it.

Li Shenron said:

How is being unable to act more fun than still having a few rounds of action worth to change the tide of the battle? Sure, with the exhaustion penalties it won't be easy to do so, but you still have a larger amount worth of actions to reach your goal (win the fight, or flee) compared to the standard rules.

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This was a big part of my thought process. I’d probably also allow players who reach 0HP to drop prone and play dead, making a deception check, to try and get enemies to leave them alone.

Li Shenron said:

I rather think that the main problem of this house rule is how slow it is to shrug off the exhaustion levels afterwards (and secondary, it's a bit too complex). Thus, comparing with how healing a single HP brings you back to conscious with the standard rules, I think the OP should consider either adding a general rule that exhaustion levels can be cured by any healing spells, or that they go away more quickly, for example:

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I’m thinking more and more to make a companion house rule that allow a player to spend half their level in hit die after a short or long rest to recover 1 level of exhaustion.

Also might allow a DC 20 Medicine check to recover 2 levels of exhaustion on a long rest (none if the check fails).

So a PC could potentially recover 5 levels in a day without greater restoration. 2 from 2 short rests, 2 from long rest with medicine check, 1 spending the 1/2 level hit die recovered from the long rest immediately after it.

OB1 said:

But looking back I realize I didn’t clearly articulate my goals with this system, so let me go back a step.

First off, please note that I don’t have a problem with the rules as they are. They are fun, and encourage a heroic play style.

That said, for the next campaign I’m running, I’m looking for a slightly grittier style, with the heroes constantly pushed to their limits and having to constantly compromise their goals just to stay alive.

To this end, I’m looking for rules that encourage finding other solutions to encounters than combat. Retreat from combat that isn’t going overwhelmingly well except when the stakes are worth the risk. And when they do engage? Go hard and fast to minimize the chance of anyone dropping to zero. And make getting into the next combat all the more risky.

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[MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] said better than I can about how the best way to make the party look for non-combat solutions is to encourage those solutions, instead of making combat less fun / making players ultra-cautious.

Even if exhaustion recovered completely every night, I don't think it's the mechanism for what you want - because the mechanics that support non-combat are ability/skill checks, and the very first thing that exhaustion does is heavily penalize them. You get to the point where a failed death save may make someone unable to make needed stealth checks, or needed athletic checks, or whatever is needed for the non-combat activities are going on. At that point, the characters are disadvantaged on everything ... except combat. So combat can be their go-to solution.

I'd suggest completely detaching gaining XP from combat, putting it to milestones. Try to do as much as you can for treasure as well - think of it more like 4e's treasure packet. When you take away the mechanical incentives for combat, you now open up other options.

From there, there are options which don't decrease the fun of combat but do make it something to think twice about. One suggestion (of many, which may not fit your table's style) is to change up when rests happen. Adventures in Middle Earth only allows a long rest at the end of an adventure, or if you are at a friendly sanctuary (think Elrond's Half-Way House from LotR). Combine that with short rests happening overnight, and players will be a lot less likely to jump into combat simply because they want to reserve their resources.

OB1 said:

My problem with this solution is that it tends just to encourage needing a strong healer in the party if you have one, problem solved.

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That's a good point, but if you don't have anyone who especially wants to play a healer, you could edit the setting such that magical healing wasn't a thing. Just get rid of healing spells entirely.

That's (effectively) how we played in AD&D, and it worked out well enough. Even if you get into a fight every now and then, you'll mostly be okay by the time you get to the next town.

I sympathise with [MENTION=6796241]OB1[/MENTION]’s desire for something more gritty to happen when a character drops to 0 hp. No interest about NPCs, when they’re at 0 hp they’re either dead or unconscious, the story’s not about them

I have to ask whether Eric Pommer’s wounds pdf has been perused and what was thought of it? It seems quite similar?

http://www.mindplaces.com/pictures/wound doc.pdf