Death and Storytelling

Bedrockgames · Jun 21, 2018

Skyscraper said:
[MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] so I understand that you like to have death be a real threat and let the dice decide when it happens (so do I); but this apart, how do you reconcile death with the story that the now-dead PC was linked to, when it happens? Do you simply let the storyline that was linked to that PC exclusively, die with him or her?
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I probably have a slightly different take on what story means in a game than some folks. I tend not to worry about it lining up with a platonic ideal of 'story' and just tend to view it as what we talk about in hindsight. If Tamlin dies by getting crushed by a rock that is where his story ends. On the other hand, I think of stories in games as individual threads for each character, and those can go just about anywhere (sometimes lining up, sometimes not). If the other players want to pick up Tamlin's story, they can do so. Occasionally an NPC might do that if there is sufficient reason. When I do play for story, it is usually more character driven soap opera than anything else (and that tends not to fall apart if a character dies suddenly).

If you are running a game where it is important for the stories to play out, shifting it to the other players is one way. Tamlin could come back as a ghost to push them toward whatever he was trying to achieve. Without specifics though, it can be hard to discuss.

Bedrockgames · Jun 21, 2018

Umbran said:
Who here has watched Babylon 5? It was a story conceived to take 5 seasons to tell, 5 years in normal time. A *lot* can happen to people in 5 years, and in several cases things happened to people on the show, that led to them leaving. How did JMS deal with that?
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That is a very good example too because (spoilers) arguably the main character of the series leaves by the second season. I was told he also built in escape hatches for each of the characters in case the characters left (giving them alternate plotlines if they had to go).

dragoner · Jun 21, 2018

Skyscraper said:
What is your experience in reconciling PC death and storytelling?

It happens, rarely, and not without meaning. I wouldn't kill a PC based on a single roll either. It comes down to investment in the game, too easy of death and it wastes the time of chargen, plus lessening the role play factor as the players become adverse to getting attached to heir characters. This is of course baring death, and being brought back to life; then that becomes another part of the story.

Imaculata · Jun 22, 2018

In my campaigns I have only once had a player death occur, but it is never unexpected, or unfair.

Most of my campaigns start with all of the PC's at level 1. During the early levels, all encounters are fairly balanced, so that deaths are just not going to happen. But with each milestone, I increase the difficulty. Once the players surpass level 10, they can expect to face encounters that have the odds stacked against them, and will require them to be careful and tactical. Those encounters are designed to cause severe harm to their characters.

When they pass level 15, encounters will be scaled up even further. But it's the boss battles they should really dread. Boss battles are the encounters that I deliberately design so that they 'might' kill a PC. I make sure to include a large number of 'heavy hitters', and opponents that attack their weaknesses. I also include multiple objectives, so the party has to split their attention. If a PC were to die during a boss battle, I would not be surprised in the slightest, but it's also what makes those fights significant when they survive.

If a PC should happen to die, so be it. The players know what they're in for, and that a boss fight is always going to be tough. I'm not going to fudge any dice to save them. They're already nearing epic level at this point, so a death would not be unreasonable.

Jhaelen · Jun 22, 2018

Imaculata said:
In my campaigns I have only once had a player death occur, but it is never unexpected, or unfair.

A PLAYER death? Ouch, that's tough! ;-)

Imaculata said:
Most of my campaigns start with all of the PC's at level 1. During the early levels, all encounters are fairly balanced, so that deaths are just not going to happen.

Umm.
what RPG system do you use?

In D&D it's impossible to remove the potential of character death from a 'fairly balanced combat encounter'. E.g. in 3e a single lucky crit roll will do it. In 4e it usually requires a string of unlucky saving throws, e.g. vs. continuing damage. And in earlier editions even a single failed saving throw can result in character death.

In my D&D games, characters are dying all the time. But I don't just use 'fair' encounters. I expect my players to recognize which encounters can be won and which should be avoided. Many character deaths happen at the beginning of the campaign because survivability is low at levels 1-3 (or so). After that, character deaths become rare, resulting only from exceptionally stupid behavior, up until about level 11 - 15.
At that point even regular combat encounters will involve creatures with abilities that can easily kill characters. It's a simple result of statistics that characters will die regularly. Luckily, at these levels, it's also quite easy to return characters from death, so it's rarely a showstopper anymore. It's just a bump in the road, unless you have a TPK at hand - but that's exceedingly rare in high-level play.

Imaculata · Jun 22, 2018

Jhaelen said:
A PLAYER death? Ouch, that's tough! ;-)

He got better!

Jhaelen said:
what RPG system do you use?

3.5

Jhaelen said:
In D&D it's impossible to remove the potential of character death from a 'fairly balanced combat encounter'. E.g. in 3e a single lucky crit roll will do it.

That is not my experience. If a combat encounter's CR is equal to the average party of the player, they'll be alright. A character only dies if their health drops below -10 HP, which takes a while.

I had one PC drop to 1 HP when an evil paladin scored a crit on a smite against him. But that was a rare case, and he was able to retreat from battle to get healing.

At higher levels it's even common for the encounters to be way too easy, and so raising the CR by 2 will maintain some difficulty for high level PC's.

pemerton · Jun 22, 2018

Skyscraper said:
What is your experience in reconciling PC death and storytelling?

Here's an example.

jasper · Jun 22, 2018

The story is not about Great Umbran Of Bablyon 4. The story is about B5 and it really really sucked that Jasper discovered girls after the first season and the dm had to retire Jasper's Commander Sin Clair.
The story is when after killing the dragon Jasper's 9th level paladin was behead by a 1st Kobold name BUm BUM using a vorpal sword.
If you want a story write a novel. This is game determined by random chance with a hell of lot of do overs, healing, and raising dead for the PCS. So drop another Quarter in the slot for an extra life and game on.
....
....
PS. I been told in today's market the quarter will actually be $1.

Ralif Redhammer · Jun 22, 2018

Death in RPGs is one of those things that sits between the game and simulation aspects of D&D. To tie it to the story being told together, I think that has to be something the player embraces and adds to the tapestry, not the DM. It has to be the PC sacrificing themselves to hold off the monsters that have all but defeated the party, or the PC taking a hit in place of their comrade. It’s no fun for a player when the DM decides “oh, I’ve got this great story moment where I’m going to kill a PC and it’s going to be deep and moving…”

But then there are the moments where the dice conspire, or someone gets cocky, and poof, a PC is dead. Those are hard to work into the “story” per-se, as they can be unexpected. Due to the nature of death saves, unless it’s massive damage, the PC spends some time dying on the ground. That’s not that heroic. Depending on the character, I’d say it would be cool to give them one last moment – either they get to get up and make a round of attacks with advantage, or detonate that last fireball right on them, to go out in a blaze of glory; or some last words after the battle.

But then that hits against the game side of things. “With his last breath, Hrolf tells you to bring his remains to his clan.” “I use Medicine to stabilize Hrolf.” “No, he’s dead.” “But he’s still talking, so I can stabilize him….”

Skyscraper · Jun 22, 2018

Good comments all, thanks for the discussion.

Death and Storytelling

Bedrockgames

Legend

Bedrockgames

Legend

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com

Imaculata

Hero

Jhaelen

First Post

Imaculata

Hero

pemerton

Legend

jasper

Rotten DM

Ralif Redhammer

Legend

Skyscraper

Explorer

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