Would you allow this?

Les Moore

Explorer
Oh my.

This is amusing. You're talking about invisible as "unseen," while the person you're talking to (and everybody else, I think) was talking about invisible as the sort of effect you get from the invisibility spell or a Klingon cloaking device.

No wonder you and Max are talking past each other.

Point well taken, but to expand, the Klingon Cloaking Device is just another form of exotic electronic camouflage, and if you look carefully,
under the proper conditions, and with the proper viewing equipment, even a cloaked ship can be seen. So true "invisibility" once again is
separate from "cloaking" which is yet another form of "being unseen".
 

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pemerton

Legend
I see no reason to presume that. In fact, even assuming a DEX(stealth) check will be called for is presumptuous. Any action declaration by any player of any character in any circumstance at any time can be narrated by the DM as failure or success at the DMs sole discretion.

<snip>

Your assumption is unwarranted, and, yes, they are.
You're not selling me on 5e!
 

pemerton

Legend
I've proven through the definitions, context and more that I am right on this. Stealth, with no other special ability acting on it, does not make you invisible. It ONLY makes you unseen and/or unheard. I love how you are now claiming the discussion is about being unseen, when you were clearly arguing that it makes one invisible. Invisibility is defined in the 4e book and stealth does not fit the definition.
You're wrong about 4e - it's in the rules for Stealth in the PHB2 that a succesful Stealth check makes you invisible to the person you're hiding from, which means that they can't see you with normal vision. (Depending on the circumstances, they may be able to see you with Blindsight or Tremorsense.)

And as I've already said, 5e refers to being unseen - which in many circumstances is functionally equivalent to being invisible.

I don't know what you think this whole discussion is in aid of, but I certainly don't need schooling from you in how 4e works, given that I've run far more of it than you; and I don't need schooling in the 5e skill rules, either.

As I already said, but which only [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has replied to - my take away from this is that non-magic users in 5e are significantly hosed compared to their 4e versions, and in many ways it seems even compared to their earlier edition versions. (Eg in AD&D hiding in shadows is as good as invisibility once you are hidden and assuming potential observers don't have infravision, although there are no very clear rules for moving and remaining hidden.)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Someone (maybe [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION]?) upthread posited that the suggestion in the OP was as absurd as a fighter declaring that s/he turns invisible. My response to that was that a fighter turning invisible equals making a DEX/Stealth check. In 4e that is literally true - a successful Stealth check makes you invisible. (As per the rules that I have already quoted twice upthread.)

In 5e it is not literally true, but the effect of being hidden is that you go unnoticed, which in a wide range of scenarios achieves the same outcome as turning invisible. (Not all - bags of flour are better for spotting people who are using an illusion effect to be unseen; peeking around a corner is better for spotting a person using the furniture to be unseen; using a Helm of Telepathy is better for spotting a person using a charm spell, like the 4e Eyebite, to be unseen.)

I also made the point that, in 4e, there are utility powers that a rogue can use which have their effect described as "you are invisible", and presumably in 5e the same thing would be done by way of a DEX/Stealth check. (I am assuming that the whole point of dropping utility powers in 5e was that it's ability/stealth check rules were flexible enough to emulate all of 4e and more. Otherwise rogues, fighters and other non-casters seem a bit hosed.)

Given that (i) you are just wrong about 4e, and (ii) you intervened in a discussion I was having with another poster, about how a fighter might become unseen, maybe the shoe is on the other foot?

We both know my comment was about a spell
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You're wrong about 4e - it's in the rules for Stealth in the PHB2 that a succesful Stealth check makes you invisible to the person you're hiding from, which means that they can't see you with normal vision. (Depending on the circumstances, they may be able to see you with Blindsight or Tremorsense.)

Or by normal vision by simply walking around the box you are hiding behind. "Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy."

Or by normal vision with with a simple perception check on the part of the person you hid from. "An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy."

There is no need for Blindsight or Tremorsense since the person is unseen, not invisible.
 

Les Moore

Explorer
You're wrong about 4e - it's in the rules for Stealth in the PHB2 that a succesful Stealth check makes you invisible to the person you're hiding from, which means that they can't see you with normal vision. (Depending on the circumstances, they may be able to see you with Blindsight or Tremorsense.)

And as I've already said, 5e refers to being unseen - which in many circumstances is functionally equivalent to being invisible.

Or, perhaps the 4e PHB2 just explained the concept in a hurried or non-optimal fashion. If you have to pass a stealth check, in order to not be seen. it seems almost
obvious that you are blatantly visible, with stealth causing the passive perception of invisibility.

Unless, of course, some editor at Hasbro decided Stealth and Magic are the same thing, now.
 
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pemerton

Legend
We both know my comment was about a spell
If someone suggested that it was outrageous for a wizard to shoot a bow, and there was a response of "cast Magic Missile", I don't think that would create much controversy.

Similarly, using DEX/Stealth is how a non-caster achieves the functionality of an Invisibility spell. My initial reply to you was mostly intended as humour; what's surprised me is that has generated all this contoversy.

Or by normal vision by simply walking around the box you are hiding behind. "Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy."

Or by normal vision with with a simple perception check on the part of the person you hid from. "An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy."
All you're pointing out is that, if you cease to be hidden, then you cease to be invisible (which is a consequence of being hidden). I don't see what interesting thing you think follows from this fairly trivial logical point.

If the target of an Invisibility spell makes an attack, then s/he ceases to be invisible too. All these conditions have various ways they can be defeated or come to an end.

There is no need for Blindsight or Tremorsense since the person is unseen, not invisible.
There is no need to use Blindsight or Tremorsense to spot a person under the Invisibility spell, either. Dust, a bag of flour, a cloak dropped onto them (perhaps - adjudications might differ on this one), etc, will all allow that person to be seen.

Or, perhaps the 4e PHB2 just explained the concept in a hurried or non-optimal fashion. If you have to pass a stealth check, in order to not be seen. it seems almost obvious that you are blatantly visible, with stealth causing the passive perception of invisibility.
The PHB2 isn't hurried or non-optimal. It's making the point that someone who is hidden (in virtue of a successful Stealth check) is in the same state vis-a-vis those from whom s/he is hidden as is a person under an Invisiblity spell, or the target of a successful Eyebite attack. In all these cases, while the condition obtains the invisible person can't be seen by the relevant targets.

Of course the fiction is different in each case. This is reflected both in the circumstances necessary to generate the invisibility, the various targets to whom the character is invisible (hiding - the ones from whom s/he is hidden; Eyebite - the one whom s/eh hit with the attack; Invisibility spell - anyone not able to detect him/her with Blindsight, Tremorsense or one of the techniques I suggested earlier) and the circumstances that bring it to an end.

But that different fiction is secondary when we're thinking about core functionality.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
All you're pointing out is that, if you cease to be hidden, then you cease to be invisible (which is a consequence of being hidden). I don't see what interesting thing you think follows from this fairly trivial logical point.

If the target of an Invisibility spell makes an attack, then s/he ceases to be invisible too. All these conditions have various ways they can be defeated or come to an end.

That is one of the most preposterous arguments I've seen on this forum. The idea that the hider has to become unhidden before he is seen by a perception check is just absurd. That's not the order of events. The order of events is hidden-->seen by normal vision-->unhidden.
 

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