Crit and death saves mean automatic ability score damage - Too gritty?

NaturalZero · Jul 12, 2018

JacktheRabbit said:
Possibly, but I find that the 5 minute work day is as much a function of having players who shoot their load at every battle or lots of players running character who regain a lot at every short rest like warlocks and monks.

Both of you are right it can change the feel of combat, it makes it more dangerous and makes players act less reckless. Oh and everything that happens to players is in the hands of the DM, unless it is in the hands of the dice if your are a DM that lets the dice lay as they fall and doesn't fudge them on occasion.

In the end I just really really dislike going to bed with 1hp and waking up with 198hp the next morning.

The effect of more serious long term ability score damage though, is essentially an extreme version of the 5 minute work day. Your party has one bad fight, and then players are encouraged by the mechanics to take a break for days or weeks to fully recover, just like real-life soldiers or athletes. You are basically forcing the players to "shoot their load" of hit points AND the spells slots needed to recover them by reducing natural healing from the default rules. The result can sometimes be a 5 minute work week.

I agree with others suggesting that you just tweak the amount of healing you get from a long rest, but you may find that players are more likely to sit around for a few days instead of continuing the plot in order to get back to 100%. If that's how your table likes it though, that's all that matters.

robus · Jul 13, 2018

I’m a big fan of Eric Pommer’s Wounds approach to dealing with the consequences of dropping to 0 HP. Not quite what you’re looking for as you’re concerned about the full heal after a long rest. But what you have to remember is that HP is measuring your ability to stay in the fight. So resting overnight should be enough (for combat hardened adventurers).

http://www.mindplaces.com/pictures/wound%20doc.pdf

StormbringerAUS · Jul 13, 2018

I also don't like the automatic back to full hit points.

I run a long rest regains one hit point, and that hit dice can be used to regain more, so after a couple of days of 'tough adventuring' the players are starting to wear down a bit, I have found it works well.

I also play if the first death save is failed then I roll on the 'serious wound table' in the DMG (don't have my books at work which is just annoying and can't remember what it is called). This makes going to 0 more dangerous and when a party member goes down the other players rush to give them aid - something I like a lot and gives it a gritty feel.

Shiroiken · Jul 13, 2018

I've tried making damage in combat more problematic, but have found that the game's mechanics are well designed in combat. The problem is the rest recovering you to full, which is why I suggested an alternate resting option in another thread.

If you want to make in combat healing more of a problem, the simplest solutions I've seen is: at 0 HP you gain 1 rank of Exhaustion that disappears after a set time. This time could be anything from 5 minutes to a long rest, depending on how much you want to make it stick. This makes going down during combat problematic, without necessarily breaking a fundamental aspect of the game.

GMMichael · Jul 13, 2018

JacktheRabbit said:
My 15th level fighter is beaten down by a Balor, he is unconcious with two failed death saves when a party healer hits him just enough to bring him to 1 hp. No more healing is available so I go to bed at 1 hp. Assuming no one attacks us in the night and we get a long rest "BOOM" I am suddenly at full health and in perfect condition.

Since all sorts of great solutions have been proposed, I'm taking issue with the premise:

- Why didn't the Balor finish you off?
- Being unconscious doesn't mean you're hurt. Maybe the Balor accidentally knocked you on the back of the head with its tail, knocking you out. Why wouldn't you be fine the next morning?
- Why did the party healer wait until you were unconscious to heal you?
- If you get in a long rest, it means you're not in danger anymore. Why wouldn't you have full HP if you've eliminated the danger?

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2018

JacktheRabbit said:
One aspect of 5E I hate is full hitpoints after a long rest.

My 15th level fighter is beaten down by a Balor, he is unconcious with two failed death saves when a party healer hits him just enough to bring him to 1 hp. No more healing is available so I go to bed at 1 hp. Assuming no one attacks us in the night and we get a long rest "BOOM" I am suddenly at full health and in perfect condition.

Hate it hate it hate it.

An idea, just an idea is this. Every time you take a critical hit you take one point of Constitution damage. You are physically injured in a way beyond just get a bruise or cut. But this is not it, My super barbarian with 185hp can get knocked unconcious and almost die without a single crit in a long battle. So this is the other part. Making a death save (whether you succeed it or fail it) is a point of Con damage. You are unconscious, you are bleeding out, you may be face down in the mud not breathing, etc, etc. Basically your body had been badly injured and even if you are brought back there will be fairly long term consequences until you can spend a couple weeks back at home resting and recuperating or the party healer uses something more than a cure wounds to get you back on your feet.

What do you think? Would this be too rough? It makes combat more dangerous, it makes it more realistic as you cannot get crisped by red dragon breath today and be sweet as a daisy tomorrow just by sleeping. You might also have to add a spell or two, low level ones that have too long for combat casting time, and a high level ones you can cast in combat that can heal ability score damage.

I dislike your suggestion

Leatherhead · Jul 13, 2018

I use Lingering Injury rules that apply when someone gets knocked down to 0 hp.
To make it more palatable for lower levels, I had to make some homebrew Artificial Limbs.

Umbran · Jul 13, 2018

JacktheRabbit said:
What do you think? Would this be too rough? It makes combat more dangerous, it makes it more realistic as you cannot get crisped by red dragon breath today and be sweet as a daisy tomorrow just by sleeping. You might also have to add a spell or two, low level ones that have too long for combat casting time, and a high level ones you can cast in combat that can heal ability score damage.

If you are just going to add in a spell or two to fix it, you aren't changing much of anything. If the spell is known, who isn't going to be able to come up with it after a long rest? So, they start the next day down a spell slot? That's the overall effect. That's added danger?

Note that the GM has a throttle on how often death saves are made - by controlling the challenge of the fight, you have some vague control over how many are apt to go to zero HP.

The GM, if playing honestly, does not have a throttle on crits. Roughly one in every 20 hits the party takes will cause ability damage. Watch how many crits you roll over time to determine if this is too frequent for you.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2018

The only reason to hate full hp recovery overnight is if you are disposed to viewing hp as mostly meat. If that's the case then what you want is to slow how many hp can be gained overnight and at rests. Of course that's going to make 5e play pretty bad because certain hp expectations are there. But as long as you are running a game where players can take multiple rests or be required to have a magical healer whose only real job is to heal on hand then just slow how fast hp are replenished and you'll have the desired effect.

Personally in your game I would go hire a NPC Cleric to follow the party around asap and his only job would be to heal. As long as he's level 3ish then all is well. 2x prayer of healings per day and 4ish cure wounds on a life cleric chassy should work great.

JacktheRabbit · Jul 13, 2018

DMMike said:
Since all sorts of great solutions have been proposed, I'm taking issue with the premise:

- Why didn't the Balor finish you off?
- Being unconscious doesn't mean you're hurt. Maybe the Balor accidentally knocked you on the back of the head with its tail, knocking you out. Why wouldn't you be fine the next morning?
- Why did the party healer wait until you were unconscious to heal you?
- If you get in a long rest, it means you're not in danger anymore. Why wouldn't you have full HP if you're eliminated the danger?

He was fighting the rest of the party.

I was fighting a balor, I went unconscious because he reduced me to zero hitpoints.

Because he was fighting a Balor?

We got a long rest in a Magnificent Mansion, which in no way suggests we were no longer in danger the next day.

Crit and death saves mean automatic ability score damage - Too gritty?

NaturalZero

Hero

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller

StormbringerAUS

Explorer

Shiroiken

Legend

GMMichael

Guide of Modos

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.

Umbran

Mod Squad

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

JacktheRabbit

Explorer

Similar Threads