Crit and death saves mean automatic ability score damage - Too gritty?

[JacktheRabbit]

I also don't like the automatic back to full hit points.

I run a long rest regains one hit point, and that hit dice can be used to regain more, so after a couple of days of 'tough adventuring' the players are starting to wear down a bit, I have found it works well.

I also play if the first death save is failed then I roll on the 'serious wound table' in the DMG (don't have my books at work which is just annoying and can't remember what it is called). This makes going to 0 more dangerous and when a party member goes down the other players rush to give them aid - something I like a lot and gives it a gritty feel.

Another item I like once mentioned by another person here on EN was not rolling death saves at all. Basically a player that was put to zero marked every round they were at zero until someone came to save them or combat ended. When either event happened then the player rolled once for each round that passed.

That was players could no longer be horribly meta and ignore a downed player until they hear that he has failed a save or two and HAS to be attended to.

 

[StormbringerAUS]

Another item I like once mentioned by another person here on EN was not rolling death saves at all. Basically a player that was put to zero marked every round they were at zero until someone came to save them or combat ended. When either event happened then the player rolled once for each round that passed.

That was players could no longer be horribly meta and ignore a downed player until they hear that he has failed a save or two and HAS to be attended to.

I will keep that in mind for a future campaign its a good idea.

 

[robus]

Another item I like once mentioned by another person here on EN was not rolling death saves at all. Basically a player that was put to zero marked every round they were at zero until someone came to save them or combat ended. When either event happened then the player rolled once for each round that passed.

That was players could no longer be horribly meta and ignore a downed player until they hear that he has failed a save or two and HAS to be attended to.

Or have the DM roll the saves and keep the players in suspense... if they take too long perhaps the find the PC is dead when they finally get around to them...

 

[schnee]

Another item I like once mentioned by another person here on EN was not rolling death saves at all. Basically a player that was put to zero marked every round they were at zero until someone came to save them or combat ended. When either event happened then the player rolled once for each round that passed.

That was players could no longer be horribly meta and ignore a downed player until they hear that he has failed a save or two and HAS to be attended to.

I hate to jump on such an amazing post, but I have to say it:

Schrödinger's Death Saves.

I've just adopted this as a new house rule.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Personally in your game I would go hire a NPC Cleric to follow the party around asap and his only job would be to heal. As long as he's level 3ish then all is well. 2x prayer of healings per day and 4ish cure wounds on a life cleric chassy should work great.

Assuming such a thing is available, of course. In the last game I ran, there were no clerics in the world above level 9, and those ones were currently too busy with running the major world governments. Even if you could convince a level 3 cleric to follow your level 15 party around, it probably wouldn't work out well.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

What do you think? Would this be too rough?

It's not that it's objectively too rough. Healing rules only make sense in the context of how the world works, and how much combat is expected. You could have a rule where hitting zero meant instant death, and that would still be fine if most combats were avoidable. I still don't like this rule, though, for a couple of reasons:

1) Crits are too random. You could be perfectly fine, with full HP and facing a single goblin, and some goofball crit gives you Con damage. There's no way for the players to interact with the system, aside from avoiding all combat entirely.

2) It's fiddly. Ability damage isn't really a big thing in 5E, because it's too much bookkeeping. Most instances of ability damage have been replaced with causing Disadvantage on ability checks. There's also no standardized heal rate for ability damage, from what I recall, though it sounds to me like you're talking about one point per day (which is reasonable).

If you don't want the PCs to sleep off critical injuries overnight, then I would recommend overhauling the heal rates. Nix the concept of hit dice entirely, and let characters recover 10% of their max HP every night. Convert Second Wind and other such features into granting temporary hit points.

 

[5ekyu]

One aspect of 5E I hate is full hitpoints after a long rest.

My 15th level fighter is beaten down by a Balor, he is unconcious with two failed death saves when a party healer hits him just enough to bring him to 1 hp. No more healing is available so I go to bed at 1 hp. Assuming no one attacks us in the night and we get a long rest "BOOM" I am suddenly at full health and in perfect condition.

Hate it hate it hate it.

An idea, just an idea is this. Every time you take a critical hit you take one point of Constitution damage. You are physically injured in a way beyond just get a bruise or cut. But this is not it, My super barbarian with 185hp can get knocked unconcious and almost die without a single crit in a long battle. So this is the other part. Making a death save (whether you succeed it or fail it) is a point of Con damage. You are unconscious, you are bleeding out, you may be face down in the mud not breathing, etc, etc. Basically your body had been badly injured and even if you are brought back there will be fairly long term consequences until you can spend a couple weeks back at home resting and recuperating or the party healer uses something more than a cure wounds to get you back on your feet.

What do you think? Would this be too rough? It makes combat more dangerous, it makes it more realistic as you cannot get crisped by red dragon breath today and be sweet as a daisy tomorrow just by sleeping. You might also have to add a spell or two, low level ones that have too long for combat casting time, and a high level ones you can cast in combat that can heal ability score damage.

Thought one - if you hate long rest and full hp, change that. Dont leave that and try to add other stuff that will apply in a lot more cases than that, especialky ones which honge on bouncey dice more than character.

Thought two - why empower dice more as opposed to empowering choices? Crit is dice only with almost no character aspect involved (nod to a few conditions, sub-class etc). Desth save can occur from any fireball and bad dex roll at 5th.

Seems to me you are missing the target a lot by trying to change LR outcomes with added random screws.

To paraphrase from Long Kiss Goodnight
"Its cold."
"Turn on the heater. It doesnt work but it makes a terrible noise that will distract you from the cold."

 

[5ekyu]

I will keep that in mind for a future campaign its a good idea.

Key is waiting risks dead cuz other attacks or aoe can add fails so every turn you let the ally lay there is a significant risk om a cluttered fight.

First time and aoe adds a fail, likely stop seeing the let them lie thing.

 

[Shiroiken]

Not the OP, but I take issue with your disagreement

- Why didn't the Balor finish you off?
- Being unconscious doesn't mean you're hurt. Maybe the Balor accidentally knocked you on the back of the head with its tail, knocking you out. Why wouldn't you be fine the next morning?
- Why did the party healer wait until you were unconscious to heal you?
- If you get in a long rest, it means you're not in danger anymore. Why wouldn't you have full HP if you're eliminated the danger?

1) Most DMs don't have monsters spend attacks killing downed characters, unless there is a good reason to do so. Not only does it feel mean, but it often doesn't help the monster survive the combat.

2) If you are making death saving throws, you are dying, thus you are hurt. Also, you've obviously never had a concussion before, as the effects of head trauma (or any kind of trauma, really) can linger for a very long time. This is the effect the OP takes issue with.

3) This is an optimal strategy, because you don't have to spend any healing on the excess HP past 0, assuming the character doesn't die from massive damage (an rare thing after 3rd level). If I'm at 1 HP and take 15 damage, it only requires 1 HP of healing to be back at 1 HP.

As to why he had 2 failed death saves, he might have rolled a 1 on his first death saving throw, or taken area of effect damages, each of which would give him a failed death save. Perhaps the Balor did spend an attack to give the character 2 critical failures. It's also possible the healer needed to spend their action casting a powerful spell to help against the Balor (more than the extra round active the OP's character would have had).

4) After breaking a leg IRL, you're not fine the next day in your safe hospital bed. D&D has always had issues with this, as the HP system is very abstract, with characters only having a toggle between fully functioning and dying/dead. Like 4E, the full recovery after a long rest is immersion breaking for many people. The OP is looking for a way to help alleviate the problem.

 

[GMMichael]

Since my point was that the character in question shouldn't have been in an immersion-breaking situation to begin with, here are the related replies:

1) Most DMs don't have monsters spend attacks killing downed characters, unless there is a good reason to do so. Not only does it feel mean, but it often doesn't help the monster survive the combat.

As soon as an intelligent enemy sees the guy in the robe walk over to a comrade and bring him back from the dead, that enemy has a good reason to turn fallen opponents into bloody mush, or to turn the robed guy into bloody mush. But yeah, sometimes characters sit at one HP. Next question: what does one HP mean? It means you have the exact same faculties (in D&D) as if you were at full HP. So really, the character went to bed at full strength, and woke up at full strength. No problem there.

2) If you are making death saving throws, you are dying, thus you are hurt. Also, you've obviously never had a concussion before, as the effects of head trauma (or any kind of trauma, really) can linger for a very long time. This is the effect the OP takes issue with.

OP needs only to watch the Lord of the Rings movies to see how quickly a hero can go from full HP, to zero, and back to full again. I don't remember Aragorn having lingering concussion effects. My previous point was that you don't have to describe your dying/hurt/whatever character as being a bloody pulp - he could be just fine, but temporarily "knocked out." Then it's not like you miraculously healed 14 months worth of surgery overnight.

3) This is an optimal strategy, because you don't have to spend any healing on the excess HP past 0, assuming the character doesn't die from massive damage (an rare thing after 3rd level). If I'm at 1 HP and take 15 damage, it only requires 1 HP of healing to be back at 1 HP.

If my party cleric told me that letting me die was an optimal strategy, I'd get another party cleric. You're right, the cleric gets more healing per spell slot this way, but it also means he lets me die.

4) After breaking a leg IRL, you're not fine the next day in your safe hospital bed. D&D has always had issues with this, as the HP system is very abstract, with characters only having a toggle between fully functioning and dying/dead. Like 4E, the full recovery after a long rest is immersion breaking for many people. The OP is looking for a way to help alleviate the problem.

That's cool. I understand. I don't like the full-HP-night's-sleep-rule either. But you don't need a house rule to fix the consequences, if you approach the antecedent the right way.