Vitality Points (replacing Down and Dying system)

Seeking constructive criticism on a Vitality system to replace the Death Save rules, allowing the player a chance to fix his own emergency when on death's door.

Credit to AngryDM's blog and (sorta) the Unearthed Arcana article from 2015 that got this conversation started ages ago.

The Issues

1. Hit Points make no sense. In D&D, a fighter can withstand a Meteor Swarm, dragon's claws, and a fall off a 50' cliff only to be taken out by a goblin's dagger. We abstractly say sometimes hit points represent actual damage and sometimes they don't. Yet, stab Conan the Barbarian in the gut with a sword and an elderly librarian with the same sword and they're both going to die, no matter how experienced they are.

2. Death Saves don't make sense. They're meant to be simple, as in I'm unconscious and the goblin stabs me in the heart with his dagger (critical hit, 2 out of 3 death save failures) and I'm still alive. They also diminish player ingenuity by making healing your only solution to a life-and-death situation. In prior editions, there was window of 0 to -10 where a player hangs onto death, and in 3rd edition, some dramatic options were given to players facing that window between living and dying: Staggered status (partial actions at 0hp) and Diehard feat (fight on from 0 to -10). We saw a budding idea that players should have a chance when looking death in the face to solve their emergency, including by fleeing, dodging, healing, or going out in a blaze of glory.

In short, what's proposed is nothing new.


The Solution: Vitality

Call it whatever you want, but what we're doing is giving each character their own "death's door" range of points called Vitality points instead of that 0 to -10 range where you lie on the floor waiting for a heal. You're here because you ran out of hit points, but instead of knocking you unconscious, we're going to let you act in a Staggered state, limited offensively but still with options.

In doing so, we're addressing the hit point debate. Hit points are solely a representation of your ability to stave off real damage, to deflect serious blows, to ignore pain, and to just be plain lucky. Higher level characters get better at this, but no matter how good you are, a sword to the gut is still going to kill you. Vitality is the real damage.

Incidentally, this also solves "whack-a-mole" absurdity because if this happens enough times, you're going to die.

Hit Points: Nothing changes in the rules for hit points. 

Vitality Points:[sblock] At 1st level, you have the same Vitality Points as Hit Points (e.g. fighter has 10 + Con modifier). 

Concept: golly, am I getting double hit points at 1st level?  The short answer is no. Those Vitality Points are a very vulnerable stage wherein you're crippled, the 0 to -10 spot if you will. Unlike down and dying, that next dagger hit can really kill you. It's not far from the Diehard feat of yester-edition where you keep going at 0, albeit in this system with penalties in combat.

Every level after 1st, you gain +1 Vitality Point. 

Concept: the UA, which sucked, made Vitality unchangeable, a flat score = your CON. That's not a bad idea in some ways because it's close to the 0 to -10 range. But there should be some room for increased resiliency over time. It may not be much, but a few points might make the difference. Angry DM came up with another Hit Die + modifier every 4th level, but I'm not sure it matches what we're aiming for. His idea was that we're getting 1, maybe 2 rounds at most to act in this staggered manner, and this was to keep pace with increased monster damage. This is where I have to part ways. A 16th level fighter, under AngryDm's system with an average of 6 on the die and +3 Con bonus, would have 49 Vitality Points. He could withstand several swords to the gut, which isn't in line with Vitality and exceeds the original designs of how long a player could hold on. As a DM, I've got to chop through a lot of hit points and defenses already, and another 49 on top of that seems a bit absurd. But, as he wrote, it's theorycraft. 

I considered having the Vitality Points be static or based on CON. By basing it off class hit points, it rewards traditionally hardier classes with a reflective higher vitality. By adding +1 per level, you expand that figurative 0 to -10 range, but in minor fashion. We don't want to expand it too much because players already mitigate hits with increased hit points, and we don't want to expand it too much because Conan's internal organs don't get tougher over time. Vitality isn't your ability to avoid damage, it's how much you can take till you die. But, I like the visual of Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bridge, a higher level fighter, who manages to be stabbed a few times but somehow find a way to finish the battle. 

Finally, Vitality points can never be boosted. Spells such as False Life continue to only affect hit points.[/sblock]

Damage:[sblock]When you take damage, it comes out of Hit Points first. Same old.

Once you're out of Hit Points, you're in trouble. All subsequent damage goes to Vitality. You're out of gas, you're exhausted, you made a misstep. Like normal, when you hit 0 hit points, the excess damage is lost (unless it exceeds your max hit points, which still equals instant death). When you run out of Vitality, you're dead. No death saves. Dead. So again, that 0 to -10 range is where the damage is going.

Don't do spillover. What we're doing is when hit points are out, you've finally taken a real hit. You're on the ropes, you're in trouble. If we spillover, a lot of characters are going to die. So we're following the D&D rules on this as normal.

A melee opponent may choose to instead knock the character unconscious when 0 vitality is reached, leaving the player with 0 vitality points and the unconscious condition. This is the only exception to death at 0 vitality points. After 1d4 hours, the character will recover 1 vitality point and 1 hit point and lose the condition.

A melee opponent may also choose to make its attacks on vitality do "nonlethal" damage. This still reduces Vitality but allows the Vitality to heal at an advanced rate. This removes the need for a foe to maul a character in order to knock them out. Under regaining points, nonlethal damage to Vitality recovers at 1 per hour if conscious.[/sblock]

Regaining Hit Points and Vitality Points:[sblock]

Hit points restore as normal.

Vitality Points are regained only at the end of a Long Rest at the rate of 1 + CON modifier. 

Vitality Points reduced by "nonlethal" damage (see Damage) recover at the rate of 1 per hour, once the character is conscious.

Vitality Points can be healed only if a character is already at maximum hit points, at the rate of 1 point per 10 points of healing, with healing calculated as if maximum healing were rolled.

For example, Brutus the Fighter has lost 10 Vitality Points and after a Long Rest, gets all his Hit Points back. The Long Rest got him 4 Vitality Points (with his 16 CON). He's still 6 down and anticipates more battle today. He quaffs a Potion of Healing, which normally does 2d4+2 healing, but since he's at full hit points, is calculated to heal vitality as if maxed (10). He regains 1 vitality point.

Alternately, Brutus has 3 hit points and gets a Regenerate spell cast on him. He initially heals 30 hit points, which brings him to 33 out of 37 hit points. He heals 1 point a round until full. At this point, the spell will heal 10 points per minute, so every minute, Brutus will heal 1 Vitality point.

The UA, and AngryDM in theorycraft, propose that getting Vitality points back is a slower process. I agree. Wounds need to heal but not in such a way adventuring is impossible. Players might have to expend resources to speed it up, a penalty for taking so many hits they're in this state to begin with. I'm using the UA rate but modified the healing because it'd piss players off to burn potions and spells to no effect. I consider healing spells to start with your exhaustion, your aches and pains, and only after that's fixed to get to physical wounds, whereas a spell like Regeneration, given enough time, will heal everything.[/sblock]


Uh oh, I'm Out of Hit Points, What Happens?[sblock]

You become Staggered. You can't act effectively. Credit to Angry DM, he calls this condition Dispirited and everything but the lingering injury is his idea.You have:

* Disadvantage on attacks
* Enemy saves against anything you do have advantage (including abilities, spells, items, etc.)
* Exhaustion increases by +1 (cumulative)
* [optional lingering injury rule from DMG]: You must make a Death Save. If you fail this save by 5 or more, you immediately gain a lingering Injury. 
* If you have at least 1 Hit Point, you lose this condition.

Basically you're crippled and can't act effectively. This creates an emergency state between 0 hit points and death. Dying but not unconscious. And, if you heal hit points, "whack-a-mole" becomes a more lethal situation because Exhaustion is cumulative. The effects get worse each stage, and at 6 levels of exhaustion, you die. As above, at 0 vitality, unless the melee foe opts to knock you unconscious, you die.

Example: Brutus the Fighter can't avoid the goblin's arrow and is solidly hit. He begins to breathe raggedly, fearing something is broken. He is stunned, staggered, exhausted (figuratively folks). His swings to keep the goblin at bay are erratic. He can't focus on his maneuvers. He realizes he needs to run, regroup, let the Archer cover him until he can safely drink that prized healing potion. In game terms, he knows he sucks offensively, but (unless you're imposing optional injuries and he receives one), he should be able to Disengage, Dodge, quaff that potion, and so on. If he quaffs that potion, it heals his hit points and he will lose the condition. Brutus gambles he can ward off the goblin and drinks a potion. The goblin sweeps low and stabs in. Brutus can barely get his sword in place to block and he feels the sting of a blade on his skin. Brutus got 5 hit points back from drinking the potion but got hit again and went to 0hp. Once again he sucks, but this time, he's at Level 2 exhaustion. If he keeps this up, he won't be able to run soon, much less do anything, and if this "whack-a-mole" keeps up, he'll die.

I've seen systems where it's proposed players get a level of exhaustion when hitting 0. This is very harsh! But, if the player is allowed to act, rather than go unconscious, it gives them power to mitigate the emergency. Spells that affect fatigue might become more imperative to a group. Getting enough sleep, avoiding forced marches, etc., come into greater play. Exhaustion is brutal because it's hard to get rid of, 1 level per long rest, but if you don't implement this mechanic, you're giving a LOT to the player without taking much away, and they can indefinitely pop potions without repercussion. This should encourage more strategic play on all levels.

[Optional Rule]: the DMG rule as written is goofy and rarely affects gameplay. You can be down 3-4 rounds, then finally fail a Death Save by 5 or more, and suddenly realize your leg is chopped off? Most of the table's conditions are remedied by magical healing, and given 99% of players will be brought back into play by magical healing, they rarely will have substantive effect. But, this optional rule makes for a grittier game where there's a chance an already bad situation gets exacerbated with an effect that may actually have impact on the battle. If you do implement this, don't make it automatic. Players will hit 0 hp often enough, and an auto-injury each time means you'll have a pretty solid chance of gimping your party. 

In a level 1-14 campaign using the lingering injury rule (fail death save by 5 or more when down and dying), we ended up with 2 lost body parts, including a barbarian who wielded 2-handed weapons losing an arm. If I implemented an injury each time they hit 0hp, my players would have flipped the table long ago.[/sblock]

Proposed Impact, in Theory[sblock]

I've played 3rd edition and Pathfinder and never had any trouble with the Staggered condition or Diehard rules. I don't think this is anything new and instead gives players options to manage their own emergencies. When you're down, magical healing is pretty much the only option, but if you're into your Vitality Points, options like Disengage, Dodge, defensive spells and so forth become paramount. 

As a downside, this could lead to more player deaths. In the current system, as above, if I go down and an enemy stabs me in the gut (critical hit), that's 2 fails. But I don't die. And, I'm wagering many DMs don't coup de grace downed players, instead having enemies move onto the next. In reality, though, a real enemy would put a sword through the downed foe to make sure they're not faking. Otherwise, you're inviting a dagger to the back because you were foolish enough to assume it's over because your foe fell down.

Because the player is still active, he's a target. But, that's the challenge. When you're on death's door, you need to take defensive action, immediately.

Also, because it's not playtested, I can't account for every magic item or spell's interaction. [/sblock]


Spell/Item Adjustments:[sblock]

Spare the Dying becomes useless unless modified. I recommend allowing it to remove either (1) disadvantage on attacks or (2) opponent save advantage penalties when Staggered.

A Ring of Regeneration restores 1  Vitality point every 10 minutes to a character with full Hit Points even though its maximum heal value is 1d6. If it can reattach fingers, it can heal vitality. [/sblock]

The "Down & bleeding out" and "left for dead" tropes are things the current system does - maybe too often, but it does them.

Did I miss where you can be dropped by an enemy trying to kill you and 'left for dead' or where you can KO someone without inflicting massive 'real' damage on them by burning through all their vitality points?

Aside from that, though, it seems well thought out & internally consistent.

Tony Vargas said:

Did I miss where you can be dropped by an enemy trying to kill you and 'left for dead' or where you can KO someone without inflicting massive 'real' damage on them by burning through all their vitality points?

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I see what you're saying. A bad guy has to maul the PC to 0 vitality to KO them. To resolve, we'd have to bring back some version of 3rd edition "nonlethal" damage rules and give the attacker who's now dealing Vitality damage the option to make a melee hit lethal or nonlethal. It adds a little more bookkeeping as in 3rd edition nonlethal damage healed faster, at 1hp per hour, and we'd have to track how much Vitality damage was nonlethal. But, I think it's doable.

And, it should work. The thugs want to take the PC in alive. They come armed with clubs and saps. Once they've worn the PC down (hit points to zero), they begin raining blows (nonlethal). Even if a thug decides to land a lethal blow (akin to kicking in his teeth), he can still opt for the KO if its the final blow. When PC comes to 1d4 hours later, he begins to heal the nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 per hour.

There is no "left for dead" option with Vitality insofar as a player is down and dying, BUT there's nothing to prevent a savvy player who takes a real hit (down to 0 hp) to pretend to be down and dying. If in question, perhaps a Deception skill check is in order. Adds an additional layer to the combats as the player might fool his foe only to spring up and stab 'em as they move on to someone else.


Modified the main section to account for this option.

toucanbuzz said:

I see what you're saying. A bad guy has to maul the PC to 0 vitality to KO them. To resolve, we'd have to bring back some version of 3rd edition "nonlethal" damage rules and give the attacker who's now dealing Vitality damage the option to make a melee hit lethal or nonlethal. It adds a little more bookkeeping as in 3rd edition nonlethal damage healed faster, at 1hp per hour, and we'd have to track how much Vitality damage was nonlethal. But, I think it's doable.
And, it should work. The thugs want to take the PC in alive. They come armed with clubs and saps. Once they've worn the PC down (hit points to zero), they begin raining blows (nonlethal). Even if a thug decides to land a lethal blow (akin to kicking in his teeth), he can still opt for the KO if its the final blow. When PC comes to 1d4 hours later, he begins to heal the nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 per hour.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be apparent they're 'striking to subdue' from the beginning? I suppose you could declare 'non lethal' damage, and it'd blow through hps just as fast as regular? ...and needn't heal any faster, I suppose, so no really difference other than when it becomes apparent they're kidnappers rather than assassins...

There is no "left for dead" option with Vitality insofar as a player is down and dying, BUT there's nothing to prevent a savvy player who takes a real hit (down to 0 hp) to pretend to be down and dying. If in question, perhaps a Deception skill check is in order. Adds an additional layer to the combats as the player might fool his foe only to spring up and stab 'em as they move on to someone else.

Click to expand...

So down & dying is always faking?

I do like the both of the heroic PC fighting on while taking 'real wounds' to his vitality, and the idea of the 'left for dead' trope, where you might take a serious wound, or even an unintentionally-lethal knock on the head, and be down and taken for dead...

A completely different system, Hero, has Stun & Body tracks that are more or less independent, so you can be dying and conscious, unconscious but relatively unharmed, or dying & unconscious...

How about when you are reduced to 0 hit points you make a con save DC 10 or half of the damage of the attack that brought you to 0. If you succeed, the above proceeds as normal, if you fail you are brought unconscious and dying, losing 1 vitality point every round until healed or stabilized.

First off, kudos for a) explaining the issues you're trying to solve and b) avoiding the common problems associated with wound/vitality systems. (If I had a nickel for every time I've tried to explain to somebody that allowing crits to go "straight to meat" defeats the whole purpose of such a system...) I especially like how the staggered effect cripples your offensive power, but doesn't degrade your defenses until you build up a significant level of exhaustion. That gives the PC a strong incentive to focus on surviving and retreating, rather than trying to land one more hit.

The system seems workable as is, but I think it could be streamlined some. Right now, you're using two mechanics to track accumulating damage at 0: Vitality (for repeated hits after reaching zero) and exhaustion (each time you go from nonzero to zero). Is it necessary to have both? Since exhaustion is already in the game, what if it became the mechanic for tracking damage while at 0? Something like:

• Any time you take damage that leaves you at 0 hit points, make a death saving throw. This is a special saving throw; roll 1d20 and add your proficiency bonus, against a DC equal to the excess damage. If you succeed, you gain 1 level of exhaustion. If you fail, you gain 1d4 levels of exhaustion. If you fail by 10 or more, you gain 2d4 levels of exhaustion.
• While at 0 hit points, you are staggered (disadvantage on attack rolls, and opponents have advantage on saving throws against your abilities).
• A creature that hits you with a melee weapon attack can choose to give you advantage on the death saving throw.
• Inigo Montoya Rule: You can spend inspiration to ignore the effects of staggered and exhaustion for 1 minute. You still die at 6 exhaustion.

Projected Impact at my table: "I'm thinking of playing a front line melee character, so my job as part of the party is to take hits. A few poor rolls can lead me to be out of HPs. Before, no problems, I pop back up with healing, sometimes not even missing an action because the healer's initiative is between the foe that dropped me and mine.

"But now I have disadvantage on attacks, plus disadvantage on everything that isn't an attack from exhaustion 1. They have advantage one every save I force. Even if magically healed I still have the exhaustion. It will screw me up for the rest of the day. And it stacks, so unless my healer is 10+ levels above me casting mega slots I never want them to stand me up because I'll be so easy to knock down again and that will gain me another level of exhaustion (that's what cumulative means, right?).

"Forget this, I'm playing an archer."

Seriously, D&D is a game where dropping to 0 is definitely not evenly divided between character roles. (Unless the difficulty is set so it never comes into play, in which case you don't need house rules for it.) Any verisimilitude attempts that add penalties to hitting zero need to take this mechanical truth into consideration and put in balance points.

An 18 CON fighter front liner who drops to zero 3 times a long rest because that's how the game is designed and a an 18 CON fighter archer who drops once every four sessions because that's ALSO how the game is designed can't have total sum of penalties between them to be significantly different without overly penalizing the former.

This particular type of realism doesn't work well with some foundational 5e assumptions and there might be a game system that's a better fit.

I agree with this, but I don't think it makes the system unworkable. I think if the exhaustion mechanic is removed and vitality points are left in, it functions fine.

BUT in the instance the op wants to keep exhaustion in, I think a good counterbalance is to add some kind of rule for ranged attackers that make them less reliable than melee characters. Perhaps a natural 1, hit a random target, or you could have strength characters add half their strength mod to their hp in addition to their con. But as written, this does make playing a melee character less attractive.

Blue said:

..."But now I have disadvantage on attacks, plus disadvantage on everything that isn't an attack from exhaustion 1. They have advantage one every save I force. Even if magically healed I still have the exhaustion. It will screw me up for the rest of the day. And it stacks, so unless my healer is 10+ levels above me casting mega slots I never want them to stand me up because I'll be so easy to knock down again and that will gain me another level of exhaustion (that's what cumulative means, right?)…."[/I]

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Totally legit points and ties into Tony Vargus about "down and dying" only being faked.

So how about this:

The 3.5 feat Diehard was optional use. So maybe Staggered should be too.

At 0 hit points, the player has taken a real wound. Whether he can take more is questionable. So let's say the character can summon his reserves and keep fighting, becoming Staggered, or he can slump into unconsciousness. Fighting when one has sustained a legit wound is serious business, and hence the penalties and exhaustion. It might make the difference between victory and defeat, and giving the player the option is allowing them to control the story just a bit more.

Or, the player might opt that the body has taken enough. Because a wound has been suffered, I'd propose we're in the "down and dying" territory, but without the side effects that come with being Staggered. After all, we're not getting a second chance, so there's no quid pro quo to worry about.

Like normal, we would begin our Death Saves. If someone damages us, we tag the damage on our Vitality (and if it's an auto crit, most characters won't survive a coup de grace), and we hit the Death Save too. If we don't like the idea of Death Saves anymore, we could substitute it with a 1d4 per round Vitality loss until dead, bandaged, healed, or stabilized (given Spare the Dying use again).

toucanbuzz said:

Totally legit points and ties into Tony Vargus about "down and dying" only being faked.

So how about this:

The 3.5 feat Diehard was optional use. So maybe Staggered should be too.

At 0 hit points, the player has taken a real wound. Whether he can take more is questionable. So let's say the character can summon his reserves and keep fighting, becoming Staggered, or he can slump into unconsciousness. Fighting when one has sustained a legit wound is serious business, and hence the penalties and exhaustion. It might make the difference between victory and defeat, and giving the player the option is allowing them to control the story just a bit more.

Or, the player might opt that the body has taken enough. Because a wound has been suffered, I'd propose we're in the "down and dying" territory, but without the side effects that come with being Staggered. After all, we're not getting a second chance, so there's no quid pro quo to worry about.

Like normal, we would begin our Death Saves. If someone damages us, we tag the damage on our Vitality (and if it's an auto crit, most characters won't survive a coup de grace), and we hit the Death Save too. If we don't like the idea of Death Saves anymore, we could substitute it with a 1d4 per round Vitality loss until dead, bandaged, healed, or stabilized (given Spare the Dying use again).

It doesn't solve "whack-a-mole" perfectly, though in my games we use the optional weapon speed initiative which affects "whack-a-mole." You have to declare actions (AD&D style) before initiative is rolled. Unconscious characters can't declare anything, so if they're healed up that round, the only thing they can do is Move. My players hate "whack-a-mole" and actually like the idea you don't just pop up fighting right away.

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Preventing whack-a-mole is okay. Yes, it breaks the criteria that by design some roles will be at a much larger risk of going down, but that as a goal without the death spiral is a change I can see a table wanting.

Maybe even if you are healed, if you get up during the same encounter you suffer Staggered.

I don't think we can agree on levels of Exhaustion - I really don't like them as I feel they impact at least the rest of the day adventuring and the first level you get makes characters fail at anything but combat so combat becomes more of a default. But I can put that aside and try to be supportive of the other goals you are working towards.

BTW, is it intentional that staggered really hurts directly offensive characters, but doesn't impact buffers and healers? I'm actually good with it - buffers and healers give others a chance to shine so I support that type of play. But if you want it to be more even and affect them as well, at the very least have concentration break when you first gain staggered.