Vitality Points (replacing Down and Dying system)

[toucanbuzz]

...BTW, is it intentional that staggered really hurts directly offensive characters, but doesn't impact buffers and healers? I'm actually good with it - buffers and healers give others a chance to shine so I support that type of play. But if you want it to be more even and affect them as well, at the very least have concentration break when you first gain staggered.

Yes, this isn't an ideal time to go offensive, and for game balance, it can't because we're allowing people to act at a time they normally are on the floor bleeding out and unconscious. We're handing out a huge boon that opens up a ton of options that weren't previously available. When you're unconscious, you have no options, and your allies have one option: heal your butt or you might die. But if you elect to be Staggered, you can Dodge, Disengage, use an item, whatever, and your allies might do other useful stuff depending on how the battle is going.

It's designed to give players more strategic power, BUT we also have to ensure we avoid abuse. Without exhaustion, and because we don't (and shouldn't) use spillover damage, there's some severe abuse that could go on. For example, an elephant gores Fighter for 20 damage, dropping him to 0hp. Fighter keeps going, Staggered, drinks a potion to heal 5 damage. Elephant gores Fighter for 20 damage, dropping him again to 0. Fighter keeps going on and drinks another potion. In short, without a penalty, Fighter could keep soaking an Elephant's 20-damage attack each round for the mere cost of a 5 point heal. Even if we impose other penalties like a cumulative -1 to everything, Fighter can use this system against certain foes to be a damage sponge.

As above, the power needs to be in the players' hands. Like the Diehard feat from 3rd edition, they choose whether to draw on reserves or slip into unconsciousness. If the idea of that level of Exhaustion is too much to bear, then play it like normal. You're knocked out. But if you're willing to accept some lasting repercussions, then stay in the fight a bit longer and do whatever it is you need to do.

Regarding Concentration, it would be in line that all Concentration saves be made when entering the condition and while in the condition be made with disadvantage. You may want to keep afloat to try and keep that Haste spell up on your allies, but the pain of actual injury makes it extremely difficult.

 

[FrogReaver]

Seeking constructive criticism on a Vitality system to replace the Death Save rules, allowing the player a chance to fix his own emergency when on death's door.

Credit to AngryDM's blog and (sorta) the Unearthed Arcana article from 2015 that got this conversation started ages ago.

The Issues

1. Hit Points make no sense. In D&D, a fighter can withstand a Meteor Swarm, dragon's claws, and a fall off a 50' cliff only to be taken out by a goblin's dagger. We abstractly say sometimes hit points represent actual damage and sometimes they don't. Yet, stab Conan the Barbarian in the gut with a sword and an elderly librarian with the same sword and they're both going to die, no matter how experienced they are.

2. Death Saves don't make sense. They're meant to be simple, as in I'm unconscious and the goblin stabs me in the heart with his dagger (critical hit, 2 out of 3 death save failures) and I'm still alive. They also diminish player ingenuity by making healing your only solution to a life-and-death situation. In prior editions, there was window of 0 to -10 where a player hangs onto death, and in 3rd edition, some dramatic options were given to players facing that window between living and dying: Staggered status (partial actions at 0hp) and Diehard feat (fight on from 0 to -10). We saw a budding idea that players should have a chance when looking death in the face to solve their emergency, including by fleeing, dodging, healing, or going out in a blaze of glory.

Every level after 1st, you gain +1 Vitality Point. 

If Hit Points are desired to be separated out into actual physical trama damage and abstract plot armor then some kind of vitality system is required. So in that sense vitality is the only solution to 1. (Well provided you don't want all D&D characters to be as tough or tougher than Wolverine).

#2 has far simpler solutions. Remove death saves and add vitality points. There is no other mechanic that needs added. Just simply removing death saving throws and adding in vitality points solves all your stated issues here.

So where is all the focus on adding a separate state after this that removes some actions as opposed to allowing you to take all actions? I see it mentioned that this is better than death saves because it gives you some actions at full strength and others at a weakened strength to resolve your death other than healing. But wouldn't it be better from a game perspective to have all actions be full strength at that point? Why justify something by saying it plays better than death saves but then defend it from another mechanic using that same justification with "realism"?

#3 Gaining extra Vitality points per level kind of takes away the context of what vitality points actually are. They are meat. They are constitution. They are not experience based which is what level represents. By making vitality points scale with level you are losing some of the internal consistency you originally had around the concept.


All that said I am personally opposed to vitality points because I don't want the hero to only ever get meaningfully hit after his hp is depleted. Classic HP can't be all meat but depriving it of any meat doesn't really feel right either IMO.

 

[toucanbuzz]

#2 has far simpler solutions. Remove death saves and add vitality points. There is no other mechanic that needs added. Just simply removing death saving throws and adding in vitality points solves all your stated issues here.

That would bring back the 0 to -10 concept, which helps with the idea an Elephant curb-stomps an unconscious character (2 fails) and the character hangs on somehow. I'd still want to stick with the "no spillover" D&D concept.

Theorycraft: when you hit 0hp, any future damage goes to Vitality. Upon hitting 0, if you opt not to become Staggered, make a Death Save. Succeed and you're unconscious, stabilized. Fail and you begin to take 1 damage per round at the end of your turns (Spare the Dying would stop this loss). A natural 20 means you regain 1 hp and a natural 1 means you lose 1d4 Vitality at the end of your turn instead of 1.

...But wouldn't it be better from a game perspective to have all actions be full strength at that point? Why justify something by saying it plays better than death saves but then defend it from another mechanic using that same justification with "realism"?

If we allow full-strength actions, we're giving something for nothing and artificially boosting the # of hits a character can absorb. In 3rd edition where we had spillover damage, in the rare circumstance you hit exactly 0hp, you could take a partial action only. Whatever concept we build it, it has to be severe because we're allowing action during a phase when none was previously allowed. The 3rd edition partial action (move or act, not both) is a thought. Even so, to avoid abuse the Exhaustion mechanic or something just as severe needs to be in play.

In theorycraft, we could adjudicate every time a character enters a Staggered state, they gain a failed Death Save instead of Exhaustion. If you get 3, you're dead. We could have them go away at the rate of 1 per Long Rest, or all if Vitality is maxed. This lowers the # of times you can enter a Staggered State relative to the 6 stages of Exhaustion, but it would remove the long-lasting and severe Exhaustion penalties and avoid some nasty stacking. It would stand to reason if one's Vitality is back to full, there's no reason for continued disability.

#3 Gaining extra Vitality points per level kind of takes away the context of what vitality points actually are. They are meat. They are constitution. They are not experience based which is what level represents. By making vitality points scale with level you are losing some of the internal consistency you originally had around the concept.

Very true. The UA had them permanently set at your CON score. I like the idea of class choice better, but yeah, increasing Vitality doesn't seem congruent with anything. Gaining experience teaches you how to avoid damage better, but it doesn't make your body able to absorb more daggers.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If we allow full-strength actions, we're giving something for nothing and artificially boosting the # of hits a character can absorb. In 3rd edition where we had spillover damage, in the rare circumstance you hit exactly 0hp, you could take a partial action only. Whatever concept we build it, it has to be severe because we're allowing action during a phase when none was previously allowed. The 3rd edition partial action (move or act, not both) is a thought. Even so, to avoid abuse the Exhaustion mechanic or something just as severe needs to be in play.

A Partial action would be fairly easy to do in 5e, just remove(npi) the Move leaving the character with just his Action - he can use it to Dash (OK, stagger) if he really wants to move. It would sorta fit the way badly-wounded protagonists often act in the movies: staggering around in agony, but able to succeed at the one thing they've gotta do before collapsing...

 

[toucanbuzz]

With what I've got so far, with additions:

Vitality Points: player characters have Vitality Points equal to their 1st hit die (maximum) + CON modifier. This number never changes unless the CON modifier changes. If a character ever has 0 vitality points, he dies. Monsters and NPCs do not have Vitality Points, though a DM in his discretion may afford them to a unique NPC. Vitality Points system will replace the Death Saves at 0 hit points.

Vitality comes into play when a character hits 0 hit points. At this point, all future damage is assigned to Vitality Points. Upon 0 hit points, the character may opt to become Staggered or go Unconscious. (As always, if the excess damage past 0 hit points would exceed the character's max hit points, he's automatically dead).

Unconscious: make a Death Save. Success means the person is stabilized. Failure means at the end of his turn, the character takes 1 point of Vitality damage. A natural 20 means he regains 1 hit point and is conscious. A natural 1 means he loses Vitality at a rate of 1d4 points instead of 1. If a character reaches 0 vitality points, he dies. A failed Death Save does not count towards the Staggered Death save mechanic.

Staggered: the character may keep acting with reduced effectiveness. The character gains 1 failed Death Save. If he ever has 3 failed Death Saves, he will die at the end of his turn. [We need to rename it probably to avoid confusion with the unconscious death save mechanic, but it gives it all a place to be tracked on default character sheets)].

If the character needs to make a Concentration save, this save is made with disadvantage upon entering the condition and during the condition. A Staggered character makes attacks with disadvantage, and any saves against abilities, spells, or items are made with advantage. If the Condition goes away, so do the penalties, though the failed Death Save will remain.

One failed Death Save can be removed at the end of a long rest, and all failed Death Saves are removed if a player is restored to maximum Vitality points.

Subject to the above penalties, a Staggeredcharacter may take Actions and Move on his turn.

Regaining Vitality:

After a long rest, regain 1 + CON modifier Vitality points. Healing spells and items can be used if the character is already at maximum hit points. Every 10 points of healing (calculated as if the effect did maximum healing) will restore 1 Vitality Point. Otherwise, Vitality Points can never be healed.

Items/Spells

Spare the Dying: Will stabilize an unconscious character by removing the end of turn Vitality loss from a failed death save. Alternately, it can be used to remove 1 penalty from a Staggered character, either (1) disadvantage to attacks, (2) save advantage to his spells, items, abilities, or (3) Concentration save disadvantage. This can be applied more than once, though it can never be used to remove the condition itself.

Ring of Regeneration: although it's healing die is only 1d6, it is counted as a full 10 for purposes of whether it can be used to recover Vitality Points. As such, every minute, the Ring will heal 1 Vitality Point to character with maximum hit points.


I do need to put some more thought into whether Partial Actions, without penalty, would work. A caster could freely unleash a fireball, a fighter a full set of attacks, etc., at a time when he shouldn't be able to do anything. It's a huge boon, even if we impose a Death Save system in favor of Exhaustion.