D&D 5E [5E] Looking for Build Feedback Vengeance Paladin + Hexblade Warlock.

I've been looking at a Vengeance Paladin + Hexblade Warlock Multiclass and trying to decide on the optimal path. I really like how everything scales with Charisma and the power of GWM+Elven Accuracy.

The problem is there are so many things to consider.

• Haste
• Great Weapon Fighting(+1 Average Damage) or +1AC
• Shadow of Moil
• Improved Divine Smite vs Lifedrinker
• The Delay to the multiclass.

I've primarily looked at Paladin 6/Warlock 14, Paladin 13/Warlock 7 & Warlock 3/Paladin 17

Why not pure warlock? Honestly I just really like Aura of Protection, Vengeance is also nice for the access to Haste, more spell slots, Find Greater Steed and healing and d10 hit dice. I'm not sure if all the benefits of Paladin are better than pure warlock. Its a tough call.

This is the build I've looked at the most Paladin 13/Warlock 7


As far as damage, all 3 builds are fairly similar. Improved Divine Smite is slightly better than lifedrinker especially when you factor in crits.

First question: why do you want to be a hexblade paladin?
If your answer is optimization, lets consider following:
Which level range do you plan to play.
If you say you start at level 1, consider following:
It does not really matter what your optkmal combination is at level 20. It is good to have a goal, but you need to habe fun in the first few levels too.
A paladin hexblade struggles quite a while with bad constitution saves, a single attack except when using eldritch blast (except when using booming blade which is still hit or miss). You also won't be able to do great weapon fighting using charisma without pact of the blade. The saving grace: you need str anyway to use the heaviest armors. So an array that starts with 15 str and 16 cha and 14 con will be okish.
Also vengeance divine smite will allow you to get your hits in.
But then you need some bonus actions to be at full strength and only for 1 minute per short rest...

Now that I see your level progression, you seem to know all that. If that is what you want to do, it is fine.

You mention CHR-based attacks and GWM. This doesn't come online until 10th. What levels do you actually expect to play at? You are doing a good job of not delaying your level 5 power bump and not delaying ASIs too far so it's definitely playable, but are you setting yourself up for a payout that might not come for a year or more of play, and might hit campaign end soon after?

Blue said:

You mention CHR-based attacks and GWM. This doesn't come online until 10th. What levels do you actually expect to play at? You are doing a good job of not delaying your level 5 power bump and not delaying ASIs too far so it's definitely playable, but are you setting yourself up for a payout that might not come for a year or more of play, and might hit campaign end soon after?

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The character is for Waterdeep Dragonheist & Dungeon of the Mad Mage so from lvl 1 to lvl 20.

I certainly agree, the payoff is coming quite late. Delaying Aura of Protection and going Paladin 1-2, Warlock 5 would reduce the delay while keeping extra attack.

I've looked at several variations and the tradeoffs.

Warlock 3 - Paladin 17
Gives you Charisma Greatsword but the darkness+devil-sight is effectively a reverse combo, making it difficult for your allies to use your aura. Paladin 17 gives you all levels of Paladin spells and only delays haste until level 12 instead of 16, I love the Vow of Emnity+Haste combo. Also depends on what my other players end up choosing as to if another source of haste will be available.

Warlock 14 - Paladin 6
Plethora of Invocations, Warlock 10 for 50% damage reduction on hexblade targets is beautiful, shadow of moil is beautiful, I love relentless hex, lifedrinker.
I don't consider Paladin past 6 to be all that powerful, the main selling point was haste, revivify and aura of vitality. Paladin 11 also hurts to miss as the 25.1% crit rate makes Paladin 11 better than Lifedrinker.
One of my main gripes with this build is I don't consider Mystic Arcanum 6th and 7th level to be worth the investment.

Paladin 7 and 8 only offer the opportunity aura and asi, Warlock 14 seems better

Warlock 7-8, Paladin 12-13
The final breakpoints, this seems to get you everything but it all comes rather late. 8-12 gives you an additional feat for the cost of 1 4th level Paladin slot and 4th level spells. Haste is very late, Shadow of Moil with improved smite is nice, only having 2 pact magic slots hurts and missing out on Warlock 10.

Warlock 20
Losing aura of protection, vow of emnity, divine sense, lay on hands, compelled duel, zone of truth, access to haste. Losing 10 long-rest spell-slots.
Tough Call.
You have to take eldritch smite and thirsting blade meaning you don't actually gain additional invocations. Although Force Damage Smites & Knocking enemies Prone is nice.

I am so very torn.

UngeheuerLich said:

First question: why do you want to be a hexblade paladin?
If your answer is optimization, lets consider following:

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This is always the answer!

I have yet to see any backstory or RP attached to any hexblade/anything build, and the entity that powers your hexblade abilities by some sort of contract always agrees to keep giving you your powers.


The rest of your answer is correct also. What happens at level 20 is irrelevant in general, you will play 0 or at most 1 adventure at level 20, you will play over 50 getting there, so take the fun stuff first.

As far as the build, for any Paladin build where you go deep enough always consider Crown because Spirit Guardians is just that good and the rest of the spell list is also. The rest are just average. although the aura that prevents them from getting away is thematically appropriate.

@Obliza

It's more optimized to start off booking it to level 6 paladin. Take a level of hexblade after that or after Paladin 11.

Why? You can start with a 16/16/14 in str / cha / con assuming point buy and a race that gets +2/+1 str/cha or +2/+1 cha/str. (You probably want at least 15 str anyways for heavy armor and you have to have at least 13 for multiclass) At level 4 assuming you bump charisma you are only missing out on +1 hit and damage from strength being lower than charisma till character level level 7 when you take your first level of hexblade, which will only be character levels 5 and 6. In return you get on-time access to extra attack and level 2 spell slots. You also get faster access to a huge bonus in saving throws. Is +1 hit and damage worth that. I don't think so.

Heck the more I'm looking at this the more I wouldn't take a hexblade level till paladin level 12.

And as always: Don't worry about GWM. It's really not that good on a Paladin anyways. Polearm master is a better choice than GWM. But you can probably get better mileage from sentinel or shield master or inspiring leader or maybe even heavy armor master if your strength is only 15 early. Most of these feats also mean you are using a longsword and thus will have less need of many warlock levels

FrogReaver said:

@Obliza

It's more optimized to start off booking it to level 6 paladin. Take a level of hexblade after that or after Paladin 11.

Why? You can start with a 16/16/14 in str / cha / con assuming point buy and a race that gets +2/+1 str/cha or +2/+1 cha/str. (You probably want at least 15 str anyways for heavy armor and you have to have at least 13 for multiclass) At level 4 assuming you bump charisma you are only missing out on +1 hit and damage from strength being lower than charisma till character level level 7 when you take your first level of hexblade, which will only be character levels 5 and 6. In return you get on-time access to extra attack and level 2 spell slots. You also get faster access to a huge bonus in saving throws. Is +1 hit and damage worth that. I don't think so.

Heck the more I'm looking at this the more I wouldn't take a hexblade level till paladin level 12.

And as always: Don't worry about GWM. It's really not that good on a Paladin anyways. Polearm master is a better choice than GWM. But you can probably get better mileage from sentinel or shield master or inspiring leader or maybe even heavy armor master if your strength is only 15 early. Most of these feats also mean you are using a longsword and thus will have less need of many warlock levels

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Thanks for the feedback, I ended up going Paladin 2, Warlock 3 to start. Not for optimization but it makes sense for the backstory/early game I worked out with my DM. Delaying extra attack and aura certainly hurts but booming blade is a decent recovery.

I know that the current rhetoric is that GWM is not as strong as most people think but I think what I have worked out is superior.

Our group also has a wolf totem barbarian which is wonderful for advantage.

Elven Accuracy + GWM + Baleful Curse.

Elven Accuracy is a average increase of +5 to attack rolls (4.99 to be specific) vs the +3.32 of advantage.
Crit chance is 14.26 vs 9.75 of advantage or the 5% normal.
Baleful curse gives a critical strike on a 19 that increase crit chance to 27.1% vs the 19% of advantage or the normal 10%

Great Weapon Master offers not only the +10 for -5 accuracy, it also offers bonus action strikes on critical hits and monster kills.


So lets look at some 11, 15 and 20 math. (Warlock 3, Paladin x)


This is all calculated with elven advantage with the dice rolls averaged against an AC17/18/20 for the average CR of enemies at that level. Increases in effectiveness vs lower AC obviously.
Considering the critical hit chance and bonus attacks that I haven't worked it out, this seems competitive with polearm mastery. (Hard to correctly weight the reaction reach attacks)

smbakeresq said:

This is always the answer!

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smbakeresq said:

I have yet to see any backstory or RP attached to any hexblade/anything build, and the entity that powers your hexblade abilities by some sort of contract always agrees to keep giving you your powers.

The rest of your answer is correct also. What happens at level 20 is irrelevant in general, you will play 0 or at most 1 adventure at level 20, you will play over 50 getting there, so take the fun stuff first.

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Posts like this have become so common to be incredibly tiring.

My friends love optimization, we all try to get the most out of our characters and combinations its part of the fun for us.

Yes, yes too much hexblade we know. If you want contract ideas perhaps the powers are not given but taught.

As for what happens at 20 in one campaign we once played at lvl 20 for 8 weeks, but I'm sure your perception of the relevance for level 20 builds is correct for everyone.

Lets sum up shall we

• You should build for low levels / all levels
• Builds should not focus around max level
• Multiclass is overrated
• How do you plan to roleplay that multiclass
• Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter are overrated
• Herp derp Hexblade
• Roleplaying over optimization (Can't possibly have both can we?)
  
  Noted. Please stop posting this.

smbakeresq said:

As far as the build, for any Paladin build where you go deep enough always consider Crown because Spirit Guardians is just that good and the rest of the spell list is also. The rest are just average. although the aura that prevents them from getting away is thematically appropriate.

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Thanks for the feedback, yeah I love spirit guardians and the combination with champion challenge but I've already played a pure paladin of that build.

Obliza said:

Thanks for the feedback, I ended up going Paladin 2, Warlock 3 to start. Not for optimization but it makes sense for the backstory/early game I worked out with my DM. Delaying extra attack and aura certainly hurts but booming blade is a decent recovery.

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Yea, with booming blade that shouldn't be too far behind a single classed character. You likely will get more smite spells off and more of them will be higher level than a paladin 5. Booming blade makes up part of the extra attack damage.

I know that the current rhetoric is that GWM is not as strong as most people think but I think what I have worked out is superior.

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It's not just rhetoric as you put it. Though with a solid source of advantage from the Barbarian it deserves a bit of a reevaluation.

Our group also has a wolf totem barbarian which is wonderful for advantage.

Elven Accuracy + GWM + Baleful Curse.

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Yep, I understand the combo you are going for. Elven accuracy requires advantage and you have solved that. GWM requires advantage and you have solved that. Baleful curse (I assume you mean Hexblade's Curse) is fairly limited use if you are using the actual printed material instead of the UA hexblade. It's once per short rest and you don't get to move it around enemy to enemy.

Elven Accuracy is a average increase of +5 to attack rolls (4.99 to be specific) vs the +3.32 of advantage.

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That figure is misleading. +5 is only true if you are assuming you will only encounter AC's in the range you are capable of hitting AND that those AC's will be equally distributed across that whole range. That's not likely the case. AC 13-18 will be the most likely AC's you will face till way later in your career assuming the DM is using a decent assortment of Monster Manual Monsters. Given the -5 to hit from GWM that means you your average +hit over advantage would be closer to +2.5 more than advantage.

The main takeaway is that as long as you have a reliable source of advantage that elven accuracy and GWM together are probably even better than you think for most of the game.

Crit chance is 14.26 vs 9.75 of advantage or the 5% normal.

Baleful curse gives a critical strike on a 19 that increase crit chance to 27.1% vs the 19% of advantage or the normal 10%

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Great Weapon Master offers not only the +10 for -5 accuracy, it also offers bonus action strikes on critical hits and monster kills.

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Yep, that is one of the most overlooked benefits of the feat.

So lets look at some 11, 15 and 20 math. (Warlock 3, Paladin x)

Level	AC	Hit	GWM	Attack	Modifier	Weapon Bonus	GWM	Improved	SUM	GWMSUM	ExtraAtk	GWMExtra	Hit	GWMHit	TrueAVG	GWMTrue
11	17	9	-5	7	4	1	10		12	22	24	44	0.9571	0.784	22.9704	34.496
15	18	11	-5	7	5	2	10	4.5	18.5	28.5	37	57	0.973	0.836	36.001	47.652
20	20	13	-5	7	5	3	10	4.5	19.5	29.5	39	59	0.973	0.8336	37.947	49.1824

This is all calculated with elven advantage with the dice rolls averaged against an AC17/18/20 for the average CR of enemies at that level. Increases in effectiveness vs lower AC obviously.
Considering the critical hit chance and bonus attacks that I haven't worked it out, this seems competitive with polearm mastery. (Hard to correctly weight the reaction reach attacks)

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The first issue is how are you having 20 charisma, elven accuracy and GWM by level 11 on a multiclass build that at most could only take 2 ASI's?

I also don't know if you are trying to take crits into account or haste or really anything else for those numbers.

Anyways though, your numbers will be fairly comparable to GWM / Polearm Master on a warlock / paladin multiclass.

With all that said the pure Paladin class with just polearm Mastery looks like it's likely still in the lead for damage at level 11.

FrogReaver said:

Y


The first issue is how are you having 20 charisma, elven accuracy and GWM by level 11 on a multiclass build that at most could only take 2 ASI's?

I also don't know if you are trying to take crits into account or haste or really anything else for those numbers.

Anyways though, your numbers will be fairly comparable to GWM / Polearm Master on a warlock / paladin multiclass.

With all that said the pure Paladin class with just polearm Mastery looks like it's likely still in the lead for damage at level 11.

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Modifier is +4 at level 11.
No haste, no crits.

Polearm Master is indeed in the lead for an average of 36 over GWM 34.5

FrogReaver;7494812 [COLOR=#333333 said:

That figure is misleading. +5 is only true if you are assuming you will only encounter AC's in the range you are capable of hitting AND that those AC's will be equally distributed across that whole range. [/COLOR]

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Its a good point, that is why I included the higher range average armor class of 17,18 and 20 respectively for levels 11, 15, 20. Reducing a 95% chance to hit to 78% is certainly significant at level 11.

Obliza said:

Modifier is +4 at level 11.
No haste, no crits.

Polearm Master is indeed in the lead for an average of 36 over GWM 34.5



Its a good point, that is why I included the higher range average armor class of 17,18 and 20 respectively for levels 11, 15, 20. Reducing a 95% chance to hit to 78% is certainly significant at level 11.

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How are you getting 18 charisma with 2 feats by level 11?

Nevermind, elven accuracy gives +1 cha and you start with 17 obviously. I forgot it gave +1 cha.