Blending the D&Ds

Zardnaar

Legend
In the lead up to 5E I had been working on my own D&D. It was basically B/X with feats using the 4E round structure and I wrot e some critters restoring some of the older D&D isms such as old score MR/SR just as a static number. A B/X clone or AD&D 3E using some 5E mechanics would also be easy. Another thing I noticed was you could port a 4E warlord to AD&D easy enough as is, you would just have to give it THACO and an xp track (which would probably be horrid like the 1E Barbarian) and AD&D hp at level 1 (probably a d10 or d8), maybe even 2 dice level 1 if its 1E a'la Ranger and Monk.

Using 5E to fix something like Star Wars Saga would also work. Using the 4E engine and 1/level to hit mixed with 5E (slightly higher numbers, AC up to around 30) could also work and numbers like that are not to far off a BECMI level 20 fighter (+13 to hit level 20).

I also like capped ability scores conceptually that 5E and the pre 3E D&Ds had.

So basically if you made a clone, a new edition, or even a .5 or .75 edition of D&D what would you take? I like the 2E Priest Sphere system (Spells and Magic over the 2E PHB) for example. You don't have to use it as is either just conceptually or you can lift the basic idea but fix the execution of it.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
So basically if you made a clone, a new edition, or even a .5 or .75 edition of D&D what would you take?

I considered this for a while as a project. There are a ton of things I've learned about rulesmithing since I ran 1e AD&D, and I've since read numerous old articles in Dragon magazine that I'd either never before encountered or didn't understand at the time which I'd want to incorporate into a rebuilt 1e AD&D.

I think I could make rules that if I sent back to my past self would utterly wow me circa 1992 or so. But the important thing to understand about my rules set in 1992 was that it was in many ways trying to be the game that 3e was. Monsters were given ability scores, constitution bonus, and so forth. Attacks of opportunity where a thing though they used a different clunkier terminology than 3e used. The concept of feats existed in a prototype form as combat maneuvers. I was evolving NWP's toward a true skill system, and so forth.

So what I realized is that my nostalgia rules would be a lot of work to produce something which was close enough to 3e that there would be little reason to not use 3e. It would be inevitably a 1e heavily influenced by 3e, clinging to older concepts largely out of nostalgia. So I never really wrote it.

Conversely, I'm exceptionally happy with my 3e homebrew rules, which I jokingly refer to as AD&D 3e or D&D 3.25. Because these rules are so close to what I ran in 1e AD&D, just cleaner, I still run 3e D&D as if I was running my 1e AD&D game. There are portions of 1e AD&D that I at various points considered importing over to 3e. The one I miss the most is the 'Weapon versus AC to-hit Modifiers', which is just absolutely beautiful in play (especially at lower levels). However, since 3e combat is already more complicated than 1e combat with more modifiers to remember and more things going on, importing the complexities from 1e that 3e lacks in practice makes combat too slow. Sadly, I've had to drop the concept, though if I was implementing the rules set on a computer for a video game, I'd definitely bring it back.

The 1e AD&D concept I'm most likely to bring back at this point is the exponentially increasing XP curve needed to level up. The 3e concept of linearly increasing XP turns out to be really difficult to deal with in play. It's forced me to adopt a custom table that reduces XP awards as you level up, where as such complex calculations might not even be necessary if costs to level increased non-linearly. It also means that you can't restart a character 1st level (or other low level) in an existing party the way you could in 1e because you never catch up the way you did in 1e. Finally, as a Simulationist, the linear increasing XP creates demographic difficulties in the campaign. The most obvious one is the problem of demihuman demographics where the demihumans in question live much longer lives than humans. If a demihuman survives 5 or 10 times as long as a human, what prevents the demihuman from obtaining 5 or 10 times as much XP? With 3e's linear XP rules, this inflates the average expected level of say an NPC elf to be a large multiple of the average expected level of an NPC human. If active humans obtain 8000 xp over the course of their lives (4th level), an elf obtaining 80000 xp would reach a 13th level. Average elderly elves being 13th level is a problem. By comparison, in 1e AD&D with its exponential XP costs, elves that earned 10 times as much XP were only two or three levels higher than their human peers, which was completely workable and interesting. Right now I'm dealing with it by saying that long lived races aren't as active as humans but I dislike this obvious kludge especially compared to the wholly internally consistent demographics of my 1e world.

I suspect over time something like the 2e Priest Sphere system is going to creep into my game, as I'm a little bit unsatisfied with the thinness of the Domain system (even as I love its elegance). I intend to do some revisions to my Champion class (variant Paladin, inspired by Green Ronin's 'Holy Warrior' in 'The Book of the Righteous'), which are going to require an expansion of the clerical Domain system and that will likely make it more like the 2e Priest Sphere system in some ways.
 


Celebrim

Legend
I also used the older diff exp for different classes a system

Classes using different advancement tables is probably something I would have tried to get rid of in any combined rules set. To the extent that I couldn't get rid of it in a rules system intended to invoke 1e AD&D nostalgia, I would definitely do some adjustments to the old tables to create better balance than they did.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Classes using different advancement tables is probably something I would have tried to get rid of in any combined rules set. To the extent that I couldn't get rid of it in a rules system intended to invoke 1e AD&D nostalgia, I would definitely do some adjustments to the old tables to create better balance than they did.

I use the BECMI tables, wizards always level up slower.
 

Advilaar

Explorer
Classes using different advancement tables is probably something I would have tried to get rid of in any combined rules set. To the extent that I couldn't get rid of it in a rules system intended to invoke 1e AD&D nostalgia, I would definitely do some adjustments to the old tables to create better balance than they did.

I also used the older diff exp for different classes a system

I use the BECMI tables, wizards always level up slower.

Differing XP tables (along with THAC0) is one of the absolute last things you would want to keep from older editions.


If anything, you would want more 4e/5e optional milestone XP rules.


I personally use a hashmark system and have been using it from 3rd edition thru 4th and into 5th. You get one hash for merely showing up to the game. You get one hashmark for story awards. You get anywhere from 1 to 2 for each combat. Amount to level is 5 + Current Level + any extra Hit dice + any epic boons (for high level 5th).


I know some people are into chart pron. But, I always wanted less charts :D

Now, what I liked about 1e/2e was the decent sized battles, henchmen, and follower management that started to get less common in 3e then non existent in 4e/5e.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'd gut the math of Star Wars Saga, and replace it with bounded accuracy, and then do some simple fixes to the talent trees(lots of trees have terrible talents that are prereqs. Kill that idea entirely), and add some new "powers" like force powers and starships manuevers for mundane ranged and melee combat, and I think that's all Saga needs.

Also, I'd do the same thing to 4e math, then repackage 4e powers to look like Saga force powers and starship manuevers, add in Talents that can be taken instead of powers, and replace the 4e power use limits with 5e style "slots", so if you want to use Split The Tree for all of your Daily Power Slots in a given day, you can go right ahead.

Also, I'd use Advantage and the saga style "reroll, take the second result", in place of 4e's many modifiers.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Differing XP tables (along with THAC0) is one of the absolute last things you would want to keep from older editions.


If anything, you would want more 4e/5e optional milestone XP rules.


I personally use a hashmark system and have been using it from 3rd edition thru 4th and into 5th. You get one hash for merely showing up to the game. You get one hashmark for story awards. You get anywhere from 1 to 2 for each combat. Amount to level is 5 + Current Level + any extra Hit dice + any epic boons (for high level 5th).


I know some people are into chart pron. But, I always wanted less charts :D

Now, what I liked about 1e/2e was the decent sized battles, henchmen, and follower management that started to get less common in 3e then non existent in 4e/5e.

I don't use THAC0 but using different xp tables is one of the appeals about OSR gaming to me and its one of the things I think they messed up in regards to class balance in the transition from 2E-3E and they're still trying to fix it in 5E. 5E didn't fix the problem of lop sided defences in 3.X (4E kinda did), but they buffed, nerfed and rewrote a few spells but a lot of them have some old problems cropping up and some new ones like some save or sucks are stupid good because saves don't function very well in 5E.

Similar deal with the multiclassing rules, they've been struggling with them since 2000. Ah the old rules perfect, hell no are the new rules perfect hell no. 3E, 4E and 5E have tried various band add solutions to this and have often just created new problems.
 
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