Ranged Options for All Classes

Mistwell said:

I looked it up on DND Beyond and it listed it as thrown and finesse but not ranged. I didn't open my PHB at the time. But if it's listed under ranged, then I'd say you are right and it may be unique in being ranged and thrown. Unless DND Beyond is reflecting errata?

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Does DndBeyond list all the bows, crossbows, etc. as ranged?

It will certainly list a range besides the ammunition property, but does it specifically call them out as a ranged weapon anywhere?

Satyrn said:

Does DndBeyond list all the bows, crossbows, etc. as ranged?

It will certainly list a range besides the ammunition property, but does it specifically call them out as a ranged weapon anywhere?

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Okay so I looked up the answer to my own question.

What I notice is that they mess up the convention for listing a the stats of a weapon. In the PH, if a weapon has the ammunition or thrown property, the range is listed in parentheses immediately after. DND Beyond is listing the range (still in parentheses) in alphabetical order with the other properties. And it just so happens that range is going to follow Thrown almost every time while looking separate from Ammunition.

So with the Longbow, it looks like the range is a separate property labeling the Longbow as a ranged weapon. With the Dart it looks like its just explaining how far the thing can be thrown.


But if you look at the dart's page in the compendium the subheading does describe it as a simple ranged weapon.

Mistwell said:

I looked it up on DND Beyond and it listed it as thrown and finesse but not ranged. I didn't open my PHB at the time. But if it's listed under ranged, then I'd say you are right and it may be unique in being ranged and thrown. Unless DND Beyond is reflecting errata?

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DDB and PHB have darts in the ranged weapon chart not the melee chart. That's what gigs monks. Far as I know, it's always been this way.

In fact when the sage compendium addresses thrown melee vs ranged weapons it calls out daggers and handaxes as examples of thrown melee that are not ranged.

Darts can sharpshooter and anything else ranged weapons can do.

Oofta said:

But this is a pointless argument. I don't have a problem with dex based players being good with bows. I have an issue with them having no penalty other than they can't take two-handed weapons. If they paid some significant penalty beyond the occasional locked door for that choice I'd be okay with it.

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A character without any strength? Good luck carrying anything. If you ignore all penalties, anything looks good.

Oofta said:

So ... basically still worse than a dex based sharpshooter because they can only hit targets at one tenth the distance of their dex based counterparts*. Why is this bad? It's still worse than the dex based equivalent.

But this is a pointless argument. I don't have a problem with dex based players being good with bows. I have an issue with them having no penalty other than they can't take two-handed weapons. If they paid some significant penalty beyond the occasional locked door for that choice I'd be okay with it. Especially because the strength issue can be taken care of with an uncommon potion. A fighter that doesn't have access to fly? Good luck finding that very rare potion.

Oh, but I forget. PCs should always be running around holding two javelins so the first two rounds they can get two attacks. Then the wizard casts fly at a higher level (because of course there's a wizard and of course they have the spell prepared and of course they have the spell slots available). Or they should be perfectly happy using that bow for an average DPR of one or two points.

*Which is another problem I have with longbows. Yes, you can do a volley out that far in theory but accurate to a distance of two football fields without a penalty? Really? Even Hawkeye would be impressed by that.

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So... I was providing info for the 35 to 60 foot assessment vs cantrips.

I have already said (in response to your descriptions of your games particular features and the weaknesses of strength based fighters vs dex based fighters in that environment) that certainly *if* those parameters are to continue *and* the differences are causing a problem then house rules seem quite appropriate. I mentioned a few iirc options.

- making bows the universal choice with strong bows like you suggested iirc initially. Now most any warrior type will carry a bow and that sameness will root out the differences.

- giving thrown weapons bonus rsnge for strength and/or extending the draw while firing to them. Now both strong hurling warriors and archers have "sufficient range" and their full rate of fire - wjphile not always choosing the bow as the one go-to.

- going to more Hollywood damage where you dont have the weapon be more than flavor cuz the damage is fixed to the character. Now your dex fighter with daggers, dex fighter with bow, strongman with axe and strongman with spear/javelin all have the same balanced outputs and frequencies.

I dont know if anybody is saying that you should keep it "bad" if it's "bad" **in your game** - that its "right" for it to be a "bad" **for your game.**

But you maybe should also note that in other games where strength plays more of a role (where grapples or shove matter more often than once a decade or so as just one call-out or where having useful intel may be more common as another but a host of other differences for sure) the net difference in play between strength warriors and dex warriors is not seen as a **problem** - just a fearure making them distinct and different and meaningful choices.

In such games, the package of differences play out in ways where the strengths of one show as often as the strength of the other and as significantly- and so no house rules- needed for that.

I hope whatever changes you make makes your game more fun for everyone involved.

Satyrn said:

Okay so I looked up the answer to my own question.

What I notice is that they mess up the convention for listing a the stats of a weapon. In the PH, if a weapon has the ammunition or thrown property, the range is listed in parentheses immediately after. DND Beyond is listing the range (still in parentheses) in alphabetical order with the other properties. And it just so happens that range is going to follow Thrown almost every time while looking separate from Ammunition.

So with the Longbow, it looks like the range is a separate property labeling the Longbow as a ranged weapon. With the Dart it looks like its just explaining how far the thing can be thrown.


But if you look at the dart's page in the compendium the subheading does describe it as a simple ranged weapon.

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Or, you know, the dart is listed in the DDB PHB (along with light cross, shortbow and sling) in the chart titled Simple Ranged Weapons.

5ekyu said:

Or, you know, the dart is listed in the DDB PHB (along with light cross, shortbow and sling) in the chart titled Simple Ranged Weapons.

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Sure, but I believe I also explained how Mistwell managed to misread the dart entry in the first place.

That was my primary goal.

Yunru said:

A character without any strength? Good luck carrying anything. If you ignore all penalties, anything looks good.

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How much do you need to carry? Studded leather and weapons don't weigh much. In addition you can get bags of holding, etc. Assuming you even track weight which a lot of people don't.

Oofta said:

How much do you need to carry? Studded leather and weapons don't weigh much. In addition you can get bags of holding, etc. Assuming you even track weight which a lot of people don't.

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Man you're lucky. Pretty sure 4/5ths of the parties I'm in would kill for a bag of holding. At least, in game.
Everything adds up. 50 coins? That's 1 lb.
A scimitar? 3 lbs.
Want a shield? That's 6 lbs.
A dungeoneer's pack? 61.5 lbs.

Yunru said:

Man you're lucky. Pretty sure 4/5ths of the parties I'm in would kill for a bag of holding. At least, in game.
Everything adds up. 50 coins? That's 1 lb.
A scimitar? 3 lbs.
Want a shield? That's 6 lbs.
A dungeoneer's pack? 61.5 lbs.

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Gold weight is rarely tracked in any game I've seen. You can always exchange for gems or get a pack mule. I have a rogue character I haven't run yet and I just added a bunch of typical gear. He even has an extra set of armor because I forgot to remove a set. He's not encumbered yet.

I don't remember ever seeing an issue unless the PC wears medium armor.