Bringing 5e elements into Pathfinder to deconfuse players

Oh yeah, I've been contemplating what parts of core-only PF will be affected most by this mod:
- Vital Strike just adds bonus [W]s to the first attack on your turn.
- Spring Attack works as written except you can make all your attacks with no AoOs from the target.
- Cleave could just be swapped for classic 3.5 Cleave.
- Charge would remain unchanged as the only way to get an attack after a double move, or all of them with Pounce.

On the whole I suspect this will make combat a bit more deadly, which should end fights more quickly. I'd not be displeased with that outcome - high level D&D combat can take rather a long time in any edition.
-blarg

billd91 said:

There are roughly a ton more ways to trigger an AoO in PF than in 5e, and a lot more ways to exploit them/modify them. In 5e, you really only provoke one for trying to move out of reach without taking the Disengage action. In PF, you can trigger them by doing quite a few things within the reach of an enemy - cast a spell, make a ranged attack, move out of a location even if not actually trying to move out of reach, stand up from being prone, drink a potion, dig an item out of a pack, etc. Basically, doing anything that draws the character's focus away from direct melee weapon vs melee weapon combat within reach probably draws an AoO.

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Right, h'derrr! Yeah this came up recently when I was playing 5th and someone stood up next to an enemy and I was like "that provokes an AoO" and I was like "OF COURSE IT DOES, OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE POINT OF TRIPPING?" and I guess I sounded authoritative and knowledgeable but the DM ruled that standing up would indeed provoke an AoO. Whoops. I honestly didn't know I was lying. I was sure I could find it in the book somewhere lol.

The main thing I noticed (but apparently forgot I noticed) was that you can now cast a spell in melee range without penalty in 5E without making any kind of check, which I was more than fine with, since Concentration now means something else and does something else, and actually constrains a full-casting character's abilities far more than making a Concentration check to cast defensively in 3.X ever did, so I was just like good, I stand next to the ghoul and cast burning hands in its face.

When things other than turning your back on an enemy provoke an AoO, that really opens up the whole "five foot step" can of worms...there are skills and feats that changing from PF AoO rules to 5E AoO rules seriously screws up, namely Combat Casting and Concentration, which are in my experience a feat that every magic user picks up ASAP and a skill every magic user invests in ASAP. I'd still advise either going full on 5E with both campaigns, or using the 5E MOVEMENT rules (but again be aware of things like Spring Attack) but not the 5E AoO rules (or lack thereof). I think. It's a tricky situation and I can understand why your players are confused.

We just had our first trial run. That. Was. Awesome.

blargney the second said:

Thanks for the replies, everybody!

The 5e campaign is running the Tomb of Annihilation, which would be a giant PITA to convert out of 5e. Likewise, the PF game's primary source material has four years of play in Golarion with the Kingmaker path, so it would experience similar conversion pains.

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Naw, I've been running Rise of the Runelords/Shattered Star mashup in 5e D&D since 2015 (with a break for 2018); it works great - at higher level it runs FAR smoother than the Pathfinder Curse of the Crimson Throne game I ran. The difference is huge. Conversion is a breeze IME.

blargney the second said:

We just had our first trial run. That. Was. Awesome.

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Good to hear it, was it just the changes you posted above or more? Less?

It should be fine. Melee warriors will be able to full attack more and there will be fewer things that provoke AoOs. Some monsters/NPCs will be more dangerous in ambushes but overall not a big deal.

Overall the two games are built on a similar d20 D&D base, options can be swapped around fairly easily.

Immortal Sun said:

Good to hear it, was it just the changes you posted above or more? Less?

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Changes we pulled from 5e:
- full attacks now take a standard action.
- you can intersperse attacks with movement in any order.
- standing up from prone uses half your movement, and doesn't provoke AoOs.
- movement only provokes an AoO when you leave an opponent's threatened area.
- one free interaction with an object or a feature of the environment on your turn (draw a weapon, open a door, etc).

It was delightful! The free interaction encouraged the players to chew on the scenery more, which is always a good thing. Combat was a bit deadlier, but we're 9th level so we can ride out a little extra damage. For the next few playtesting sessions, if any PCs die because of the change to the action system, they'll just be comatose until the next morning. Game ended with a table full of exhilarated players.
-blarg