Healing to temp HPs ratio

Blue · Feb 21, 2019

So, what's the balance point of healing vs. temporary Hit Points? If you could heal 10, what's the equivelent in tHP? Is it generally more or less than 10?

Healing has the advantage it permanent. It also has the case of being able to wake up an unconcious ally. But you can't pre-heal to exceed maximum HPs. Healing stacks with other healing (up to the amount you are damaged), and stacks with tHP.

Temp HP can exceed your HPs, so you can pre-buff with them. But they don't stack, so you can only effectively have a single pre-buff running - you need to wait until those are lost to pre-buff again. THP never stacks with tHP, but does stack with healing (assuming you are damaged).

I know there's a lot of context to this. Out of combat tHP may be better because healing is more common and it can stack with it. But out of combat an endless supply of "action to heal 1 HP" is a lot better than an endless supply of "action to grant 1 tHP".

In combat the ability to stand up a fallen ally is the most critical use of healing. But being able to throw out a buff when you have the action (or bonus action, or whatever) that doesn't depend if the target is already wounded or not has some advantages.

Really big seems to favor tHP - less regret about them not stacking, no chance of losing some of it to not being wounded enough.

So, assuming you're at the level that healing 20 HP is reasonable sized to use an action and resource on, what's your equivalent in combat? Out of combat?

5ekyu · Feb 21, 2019

Blue said:
So, what's the balance point of healing vs. temporary Hit Points? If you could heal 10, what's the equivelent in tHP? Is it generally more or less than 10?

Healing has the advantage it permanent. It also has the case of being able to wake up an unconcious ally. But you can't pre-heal to exceed maximum HPs. Healing stacks with other healing (up to the amount you are damaged), and stacks with tHP.

Temp HP can exceed your HPs, so you can pre-buff with them. But they don't stack, so you can only effectively have a single pre-buff running - you need to wait until those are lost to pre-buff again. THP never stacks with tHP, but does stack with healing (assuming you are damaged).

I know there's a lot of context to this. Out of combat tHP may be better because healing is more common and it can stack with it. But out of combat an endless supply of "action to heal 1 HP" is a lot better than an endless supply of "action to grant 1 tHP".

In combat the ability to stand up a fallen ally is the most critical use of healing. But being able to throw out a buff when you have the action (or bonus action, or whatever) that doesn't depend if the target is already wounded or not has some advantages.

Really big seems to favor tHP - less regret about them not stacking, no chance of losing some of it to not being wounded enough.

So, assuming you're at the level that healing 20 HP is reasonable sized to use an action and resource on, what's your equivalent in combat? Out of combat?

Uhhh... depends on context and availability. I dont usually see these as competitors or an either/or.

If you are down Hp and combat is imminent then they are pretty much 1-to-1 equivalent. Use whichever burns features slots in a way that's better in the vircumstsnce.

If you are not down HP and combat is imminent, THP are better (obviously) as long as you leave enough slots for emergency healing (either way) in the fight in case the damage lands where you dont expect.

If your campaign has a house rule I have seen that allows you to spend HD ehdn healed that shifts things towards using heals mid-combat.

FrogReaver · Feb 21, 2019

I would use heal a lot more if it granted 60 temp hp

I think large values are better as temp hp. I think small values are better for healing

So I’d much rather have 60 temp hp than 60 healing. I’d rather have 6 healing than 6 temp hp.

This is pretty much the case at every level for me.

assuming the temp hp don’t expire till your next rest

Kurotowa · Feb 21, 2019

I think you're asking slightly the wrong question. You're asking about equivalent values for equivalent spells. That's really hard to measure because the two do very different things, for all the reasons you list. A better question might be, "How available should Temp HP be at all?"

The two spells I can think of off the top my head that give Temp HP, False Life and Armor of Agathys, are both Self only. The amount of Temp HP they give per spell level isn't bad, as it has to be for those spells to retain value, but they're deliberately restricted as to who can benefit from them. They're there to let the squishiest classes, Wizards and Warlocks and Sorcerers, buy some reduced squishiness. The option to buff your front line melee PCs with Temp HP doesn't exist at all. That's how valuable it is.

Now yes, there's some specialized cases where it can happen, but they're not exactly game breaking. An Eldritch Knight Fighter can take False Life, but they've got few enough spell slots of low enough level it's not a huge impact. A Valor or Blade Bard can spend a Magical Secret slot on Armor of Agathys, but I don't think that's exactly a power combo. I'm sure there's a few others. But between the inability to stack Temp HP and the target restrictions on most sources, I think there were obviously deliberate design choices to limit who has easy access to it. That's far more important than asking how much Temp HP a spell or ability should give.

TwoSix · Feb 21, 2019

Very tough comparison. I'd probably use 1:1 as a baseline, but acknowledge that greater frequency of use favors regular healing, and greater potency of effect favors temp HP.

In combat, assuming the target is an injured character for whom the healing wouldn't be wasted, I'd prioritize healing over temp hit points unless the temp hit difference was enough to counter about one full extra hit. For a combat in which is 20 hit points is relevant but not overwhelming (so Tier 2, mainly), I'd like to see 30 temp hit points before I'd forgo 20 regular. About a 2:3 conversion, I guess.

bedir than · Feb 21, 2019

Kurotowa said:
The two spells I can think of off the top my head that give Temp HP, False Life and Armor of Agathys, are both Self only. The amount of Temp HP they give per spell level isn't bad, as it has to be for those spells to retain value, but they're deliberately restricted as to who can benefit from them. They're there to let the squishiest classes, Wizards and Warlocks and Sorcerers, buy some reduced squishiness. The option to buff your front line melee PCs with Temp HP doesn't exist at all. That's how valuable it is.

Inspired Leader

FrogReaver · Feb 21, 2019

Define your hp pool will give better feedback

Kurotowa · Feb 21, 2019

bedir than said:
Inspired Leader

As I said, off the top of my head. I did vaguely remember there's two or three group wide Temp HP sources out there. On top of Inspiring Leader, Glamour Bards from Xanathar's Guide get Mantle of Inspiration. And on the topic of XGtE, and Dream Druids get Balm of the Summer Court for a tiny amount of single target Temp HP on top of one of their heals.

That said, I don't think any of this undermines my main point. Inspiring Leader and Mantle of Inspiration have some important differences from False Life and Armor of Agathys. There's a very high opportunity cost, either a feat with a pre-req or taking an unpopular Bard sub-class. Also the amount of Temp HP they give is an order of magnitude less than the spells. A scattering of Temp HP across the party is different than dropping 20 or 30 Temp HP on a single target.

The Crimson Binome · Feb 21, 2019

I was expecting this to be a thread about warlords.

The big problem with temporary Hit Points is that sometimes they miss. You can put them on the wrong target. If you put 10thp on the wizard, but the rogue is the one who gets attacked, then those 10thp are wasted. With healing, since it's always done after the damage has taken place, you always know the right target to heal. If the rogue takes damage and the wizard does not, then you know to heal the rogue and not the wizard.

Temporary Hit Points are worth more than healing if you are reasonably certain that you were going to take enough damage that you would have to spend resources to address it (rather than just using Hit Dice). As a healer, it can be hard to predict who will take damage; and with the ability for Hit Dice to cover incidental healing, it's twice as hard for you to predict which emergencies will be dire enough to warrant spending a spell slot on it. Off the top of my head, I would guess that you need at 50% more temporary HP to balance it against healing - if you could heal 20hp with a spell slot, then the same spell slot would need to provide 30thp in order for it to be worth spending.

FrogReaver · Feb 21, 2019

Saelorn said:
I was expecting this to be a thread about warlords.

The big problem with temporary Hit Points is that sometimes they miss. You can put them on the wrong target. If you put 10thp on the wizard, but the rogue is the one who gets attacked, then those 10thp are wasted. With healing, since it's always done after the damage has taken place, you always know the right target to heal. If the rogue takes damage and the wizard does not, then you know to heal the rogue and not the wizard.

Temporary Hit Points are worth more than healing if you are reasonably certain that you were going to take enough damage that you would have to spend resources to address it (rather than just using Hit Dice). As a healer, it can be hard to predict who will take damage; and with the ability for Hit Dice to cover incidental healing, it's twice as hard for you to predict which emergencies will be dire enough to warrant spending a spell slot on it. Off the top of my head, I would guess that you need at 50% more temporary HP to balance it against healing - if you could heal 20hp with a spell slot, then the same spell slot would need to provide 30thp in order for it to be worth spending.

You can put temp hp on injured pcs effectively brining their hp to their max or possibly above.

in short an injured pc that receives 10 temp hp is just as well off as an injured of that receives 10 healing.

Healing to temp HPs ratio

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal

5ekyu

Hero

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Kurotowa

Legend

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Kurotowa

Legend

The Crimson Binome

Hero

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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