Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

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Riley37

First Post
OK, but are you implying that those who like orcs in D&D are indulging repressed racist beliefs? I don't think so. I think "The black brute is lurking in the dark, a monstrous beast, crazed with lust. His ferocity is almost demoniacal. A mad bull or tiger could scarcely be more brutal. A whole community is frenzied with horror, with the blind and furious rage for vengeance."...describes a worthy fantasy roleplay monster, regardless of whether some hysterical white people 120 years ago thought of black people like this.

On one hand, many of those terms could also apply to Grendel, a mix of human and monster, and AFAIK not a stand-in for humans of any particular race.
On another hand, the part about lust, and the woman trembling in fear, is a significant element, non-overlapping with the threats posed by bulls and tigers.
Tolkien does not describe orcs as sexually lustful. But if I had to bet, whether the Uruk-Hai had human fathers and orc mothers, or vice versa...

On yet another hand, why do you specify "120 years ago", when it's only five years since Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson used similar language to describe Mike Brown? In his testimony, Wilson describes Brown as "like a demon, that's how angry he looked", which is quite close to "His ferocity is almost demoniacal". Wilson also described Brown "hulking up" to shrug off bullets. I'm not taking a position on the shooting itself. Just pointing out that Wilson's imagery and vocabulary, in the 21st century, is a lot like the terms in that passage you quoted.
 

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Hussar

Legend
OK, but are you implying that those who like orcs in D&D are indulging repressed racist beliefs? I don't think so. I think "The black brute is lurking in the dark, a monstrous beast, crazed with lust. His ferocity is almost demoniacal. A mad bull or tiger could scarcely be more brutal. A whole community is frenzied with horror, with the blind and furious rage for vengeance."...describes a worthy fantasy roleplay monster, regardless of whether some hysterical white people 120 years ago thought of black people like this.

See, this is the danger of this conversation.

No one, throughout this thread, has pointed the slightest finger. At worst, comments have been pointedly directed towards drilling down to the source of different opinions, but, no one has ever claimed that liking orcs is "indulging in repressed racist beliefs".

For the overwhelming majority, I'd say that those who like orcs do so despite the racist background, not because of it. Same way we can enjoy Mythos ideas without losing sight that Lovecraft was a bigot. And, again, as depictions of orcs and other humanoids have become more nuanced and broader in published works, the connection between orcs and any real world racism becomes more and more tenuous. Far more people know orcs from Warcraft than Tolkien these days and Warcraft orcs are certainly not born evil. They have a rich culture, language and are seen as pretty much as an equal to the humans in the game.

There's a reason you can PLAY orcs in Warcraft. There was virtually no sense in the games that orcs were inherently evil. They might serve an evil master (depending on what campaign you play) but, that wasn't the be all and end all of "orc".

No one is saying you can't have evil orcs. Of course you can. They make pretty cool bad guys. No different than you can have evil humans. Or evil dwarves. Or evil elves. I mean, you can go back to Dragonlance and see the "noble elf" trope get turned over. Elves in Dragonlance aren't good. Some are and some aren't.
 

Sadras

Legend
There was virtually no sense in the games that orcs were inherently evil.

@Hussar I agree with your above post, I just have issue with the above quote and so have to ask if it makes no sense have orcs as inherently evil* then what is your take on gnolls?

*And I'm not arguing for either way, for me playing them inherently evil or misunderstood or misled is a matter of taste for the campaign mythos or otherwise. Cause essentially you're skirting very close to saying there is a badwrongfun way for playing orcs.
 

pemerton

Legend
this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and yes some rooted in the ideas and thought of that time by the author.
I think that is the sort of thing that is up to the world designer. And I think if we insist one way or another, it removes a lot of possibilities, not because those possibilities are themselves racist, but because there is possibility they could be in some cases.

<snip>

fantasy worlds are thought experiments
If someone wants to write a story in which savage dark-skinned predators lust after virginal pale-skinned damsels, of course that's their prerogative. But if they get called out for deploying blatanly racist imagery, who's going to have much sympathy for them?

JRRT is not egaged in a "though experiement: - Gee, what would it be like to imagine all the good people being fair-skinned and all the evil people being swarthy, so that their loyalties and morality were literally written on their faces? He is writing a story where he draws on ideas that he finds ready-to-hand, and these include the tropes of swarthy, "slant-eyed", scimitar-wielding Asiatic hordes.

You don't get a free pass on deploying ready-to-hand racist tropes simply because you stipulate that your story is about an imaginary place. (Especially when, in JRRT's case, its actually not about an imaginary place at all but about an imagined pre-historic Earth.)

Because 'colonialist propaganda parrallel' isn't something that most people think when they see an image of a D&D orc for the first time.

<snip>

its the sort of thing you need to be educated into believing before you will generally see it as a problem.

<snip>

divide between the people with an advanced education and those who don't have one

<snip>

But if someone makes a game with an evil goblinoid creature, is it really that bad of a thing?
If someone wants to produce an opera in which two of the primary antagonists are portrayed as short, unattractive, inspid and money-grubbing, is that really that bad of a thing? Well, some people think that those dwarves in Wagner's most famour opera are an anti-Semitic caricature. Do you not agree? Then knock yourself out producing The Ring. Will some people decline to come and see it because they object to what they see as racist tropes? Probably - do you think they're obliged to share your opinion of the matter?

Are there ways of producing The Ring that try to downplay or ameliorate possible hints of anti-Semitism? Clearly yes. But it won't occur to someone to do this if they don't think about the issue in the first place.

As far as your claims about "advanced education" are concerned, frankly they're nonsense. People don't need advanced education to notice racist tropes as part of their larger life experience. Youug children of colour - who obviously have not benefitted from advanced education - do this day-in, day-out.

I get that you are pointing to an academic debate on this topic, but most people are not steeped in that debate.
I have many people whom I'm close to for whom this is not an academic debate. It's real life. Just asn one example: some people I know, as primary school kids, had to confront questions and expectations about jungles and headhunters and the like. Unsurprisingly, none of these people is white.

The fact that you continue to disregard this despite having had multiple posters (not just me) make the point makes me doubt your broader protestations of good intentions.
 

Sadras

Legend
If someone wants to write a story in which savage dark-skinned predators lust after virginal pale-skinned damsels, of course that's their prerogative. But if they get called out for deploying blatanly racist imagery, who's going to have much sympathy for them?

...(snip)...

You don't get a free pass on deploying ready-to-hand racist tropes simply because you stipulate that your story is about an imaginary place.

Yes, because that is what I was defending and those are the games I run. :erm:
 
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pemerton

Legend
Yes, because that is what I was saying and those are the games I run. :erm:
I thought you were arguing that it's unfair to call out JRRT's racist tropes (pale heroic elves vs swarthy evil goblins) because it's just a fiction:

Hussar said:
So, you see absolutely no issue with the fact that I'd have to dye my hair to be considered "good" in a Tolkien universe? That without changing my appearance, there is no way I could be considered part of the best "good" race?

Really, you think that's not an issue?
But Hussar, this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and yes some rooted in the ideas and thought of that time by the author.
 

Sadras

Legend
I thought you were arguing that it's unfair to call out JRRT's racist tropes (pale heroic elves vs swarthy evil goblins) because it's just a fiction:

My full quote.

Sadras said:
But Hussar, this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and yes some rooted in the ideas and thought of that time by the author. But if you really want to stretch it, in RL people are not born with elven ears. None of us, whatever hair colour, make good elves, Tolkien or otherwise. There is a point where this reassessing goes too far and I think we might be there. Don't you?

If you followed the debate it was along the lines of casting and/or roleplaying x race in the game because the author never included black skinned/haired elves thereby limiting PoC whether in RL to get the elf acting job or wanting to roleplay a dark skinned/haired elf.
Maybe I was not clear, but I was defending the position of the author (whoever it may be) of not having to think up in their fictional universe how to include everyone of hair/skin/eye colour. I thought the conversation had reached a certain level of ridiculousness hence my fine tooth comb comment.

As for rapey-orcs, it is not a topic I have explored in my games even though the half-orc is one of the playable races in the PHBs. My first instance of rape in D&D fantasy that I can recall reading about is in Tanis, the Shadow Years by Barbara Siegel, a human raping a female elf.
 

pemerton

Legend
I was defending the position of the author (whoever it may be) of not having to think up in their fictional universe how to include everyone of hair/skin/eye colour.
If an author thinks only of white protagonists, I'll draw the appropriate inferences. The fact that the author's universe is (notionally) fictional won't change that.
 

Sadras

Legend
If an author thinks only of white protagonists, I'll draw the appropriate inferences. The fact that the author's universe is (notionally) fictional won't change that.

So what is your take on Harry Potter?

EDIT: And are you ok with an all Asian or Black cast? What if the book was written in Asia or Africa respectively?
 


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