Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Sadras]

I've never read it. I understand some people got upset when, in a theatrical version, Hermione was cast as Black; but that the author said there was nothing in the books to suggest she wasn't Black.

I think some people are missing basic human preferences and it gets lumped as racism.

Some people do not want to see a black Zeus or Achilles.
Some people do not like the new take on the Klingons in Star Trek Discovery.
Some people do not want to see a transvestite Superman.
Some people do not want to see the Drow loose their matriarchy status.
Some people did not like Timothy Dalton as a James Bond because maybe he was too real and lacked the charm/grace of the previous Bonds (i.e. he went against cannon)
Some people did not like 4e.

So if someone does not want to see darker-skinned Tolkien elves or a black Hermione it likely has nothing to do with racism.

 

[Bedrockgames]

As far as your claims about "advanced education" are concerned, frankly they're nonsense. People don't need advanced education to notice racist tropes as part of their larger life experience. Youug children of colour - who obviously have not benefitted from advanced education - do this day-in, day-out.

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I agree there are plenty of media tropes that are obviously racist and don't require any schooling or training to see. I don't think that is the case with things like D&D orcs. When I see arguments about orcs and colonialism, or dungeon delving as a form of colonialism, you can see the academic lens of that point and it isn't something most people walk around with.

The rest of your post completely mischaracterizes what I am saying, so I am not even going to respond to it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I

I have many people whom I'm close to for whom this is not an academic debate. It's real life. Just asn one example: some people I know, as primary school kids, had to confront questions and expectations about jungles and headhunters and the like. Unsurprisingly, none of these people is white.

The fact that you continue to disregard this despite having had multiple posters (not just me) make the point makes me doubt your broader protestations of good intentions.

I feel the posts above generally mischaracterize or frame my positions in the worst conceivable light, so I am not responding. But this I want to respond to. You are very good at debate pemerton. I am going to acknowledge I have reached my limit in terms of being able to debate this topic with you (not because I am wrong, but simply because I am not as smart, practiced, or educated as you). But I will say this, I think you are seriously underestimating the educational divide here and I think you are unfairly calling my intentions into question. I know what goes on in my own head, you don't. I know how I was raised, and I know how I feel about people. I think it is entirely possible not to see an issue with evil goblinoid races in games and have perfectly good intentions. I also think the point of view you are expressing, is one I mainly encounter in well-to-do, very white, suburban communities. I live in a poor neighborhood (wasn't born poor, but I am poor due to disability), and most of the people that I am around, particularly minorities and immigrants that I know, think more like I do about this subject than you do (and none of us feel race isn't a pressing issue in society, we just don't spend a lot of our times worrying about stuff like whether orcs are a colonialist trope). I live in an area where gunshots are a pretty regular occurrence (or at least a too frequent occurrence in my opinion). I've seen racism play out here in my daily life in pretty horrifying ways. I don't dismiss it as a real concern. I take it very seriously. I don't want to get into these personal aspects of my life, but if you are going to call my intentions into question the way you are, I feel it is someone necessary to explain the point of view I am coming from. All I am saying is I think evil goblins are fine, and I think you have to build a deep argument that goes back to Tolkien and looks closely at the text to make this case. I don't think that is a stretch at all for me to say and I think that is why, up until very recently, threads like this were not taken very seriously (I will say I think things are shifting and the ideas you are talking about are working their way into the broader online culture, but even there I would maintain the people who tend to be at the top of that conversation are the highly educated and those without advanced degrees are the ones who tend to have to tread a lot more carefully). I am not sure this trend, however well intentioned is good. And I think a lot of people, even people on this thread, are using the sense of moral righteousness this issue gives them, as en excuse for cruelty. Again, want to point out, all I am saying is I think there is room for evil goblinoids and orcs in RPGs. And I also said I think it is good that something like D&D has more diverse art. My contention has basically been lets make sure there is room for a lot of interesting and entertaining ideas.

 

[pemerton]

I think some people are missing basic human preferences and it gets lumped as racism.

Some people do not want to see a black Zeus or Achilles.
Some people do not like the new take on the Klingons in Star Trek Discovery.
Some people do not want to see a transvestite Superman.
Some people do not want to see the Drow loose their matriarchy status.
Some people did not like Timothy Dalton as a James Bond because maybe he was too real and lacked the charm/grace of the previous Bonds (i.e. he went against cannon)
Some people did not like 4e.

So if someone does not want to see darker-skinned Tolkien elves or a black Hermione it likely has nothing to do with racism.

If the colour of a protagonist is never specified (is that the case for Hermoine? I believe that the author has said as much, but I've not read her books), then why would someone protest because that character - in a theatrical or movie versi - is cast as Black or otherwise non-white?

I can't think of any reason that doesn't pertain to something in the neighbourhood (at least) of racism - eg an assumption that protagonists are, by default, white unless expressly called out otherwise.

But in any event, I wasn't talking about casting: you said that this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and I am saying that if the customs that the author imagines in writing his/her fiction express, reflect, or correspond with racial tropes, then the author can hardly complain if some audience members notice and comment on this.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Feel better, Brendan! I may disagree with you on this and other issues, but I certainly don't wish you ill!

Thanks Darkbard, very much appreciate the kind thoughts.

 

[pemerton]

I think it is entirely possible not to see an issue with evil goblinoid races in games and have perfectly good intentions.

Has anyone in this thread denied this? I haven't. You are the poster who keeps wanting to talk about intentions, when I (and others) have repeatedly posted that we are not talking about them and are not interested in them.

What I'm denying is a different claim of yours: that only those with a certain "advanced education" will notice this. That claim is false. I've posted counterexamples - people who do not have such "advanced education" and yet can recognise and feel the significance of the trope of evil orcs who dwell as violent predators on the borders of "civilisation". You are ignoring what I'm saying. Why? Do you think I'm making it up?

 

[Bedrockgames]

What I'm denying is a different claim of yours: that only those with a certain "advanced education" will notice this. That claim is false. I've posted counterexamples - people who do not have such "advanced education" and yet can recognise and feel the significance of the trope of evil orcs who dwell as violent predators on the borders of "civilisation". You are ignoring what I'm saying. Why? Do you think I'm making it up?

I am not saying only people with advanced degrees notice this stuff. I am saying it is primarily people with advanced degrees who make these observations (or people sufficiently practiced in the language of this topic that has filtered into online culture). I can't comment on the people you've met who say things. I am saying there is a real divide here, and I'm giving you my personal observations on the issue. I also acknowledged that this stuff has filtered into the broader culture. And I recognized there are tropes that are much more obvious that anyone can see on their own. But yes, I think seeing an orc as currently presented in say 5E as parallel colonialist propaganda, generally does require a good bit of knowledge to see. And even if it doesn't, I don't think it is one of these things that is so cut and dry. I am not saying you have to agree with me Pemerton. But your post does call my intentions into question. And I bring intention up because it has been getting mentioned or hinted at by many of the responses. In some cases, I clarified with people and it was fine. But it has definitely come up (and not just from me).

 

[Hussar]

I think some people are missing basic human preferences and it gets lumped as racism.

Some people do not want to see a black Zeus or Achilles.
Some people do not like the new take on the Klingons in Star Trek Discovery.
Some people do not want to see a transvestite Superman.
Some people do not want to see the Drow loose their matriarchy status.
Some people did not like Timothy Dalton as a James Bond because maybe he was too real and lacked the charm/grace of the previous Bonds (i.e. he went against cannon)
Some people did not like 4e.

So if someone does not want to see darker-skinned Tolkien elves or a black Hermione it likely has nothing to do with racism.

I'm not about to start playing mind reading games. The fact that Tolkien wrote the elves as fair skinned and orcs as dark is grounded in pretty racist ideas. This has been shown with more than a few quotes from the books. This isn't something that people have just made up. It's right there in the books.

Which means, if you defend this choice, you are, in fact, defending racist ideas. There's no way around that. You can frame it as "traditionalist" or however you like, but, at the end of the day, there's no escaping the fact that the person is defending racism.

Pretending that simple taste issues (whether I like 4e or not, or Timothy Dalton as Bond) is whitewashing the issue and again, really dismissive. It's great that you don't have this issue. Fantastic for you. Wonderful. But, why does your lack of taking issue mean that I'm somehow wrong for doing so?

The fact that you'd actually defend criticisms of a black Hermione as having "nothing" to do with racism is, frankly, pretty blind. Are you seriously saying that all the criticisms of the play had nothing to do with racism? Not a single person who raised the issue had a single racist bone in their body? That the Twitter storm over casting black actors as elves has absolutely nothing to do with racism? Not a single person complained because of racism?

Like I said, I'm not a mind reader. If someone is defending racist concepts, they are defending racist concepts. Why they are choosing to do so is not my problem. I really, really don't care. I'm not going to play the whole "Well, I'm not really a racist but" game with people. And, if someone chooses to defend concepts that are pretty clearly racist, they cannot escape criticism. Sorry, but, that's the way it is. Playing the "badwrongfun" card doesn't excuse using racist tropes in your game. I'm sure people have fun with it. Bully for them. Just because they enjoy it doesn't suddenly make it not racist.

 

[Hussar]

I am not saying only people with advanced degrees notice this stuff. I am saying it is primarily people with advanced degrees who make these observations (or people sufficiently practiced in the language of this topic that has filtered into online culture). I can't comment on the people you've met who say things. I am saying there is a real divide here, and I'm giving you my personal observations on the issue. I also acknowledged that this stuff has filtered into the broader culture. And I recognized there are tropes that are much more obvious that anyone can see on their own. But yes, I think seeing an orc as currently presented in say 5E as parallel colonialist propaganda, generally does require a good bit of knowledge to see. And even if it doesn't, I don't think it is one of these things that is so cut and dry. I am not saying you have to agree with me Pemerton. But your post does call my intentions into question. And I bring intention up because it has been getting mentioned or hinted at by many of the responses. In some cases, I clarified with people and it was fine. But it has definitely come up (and not just from me).

[MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] - ok, you're claiming that this is a corner issue that only comes up with very small groups of academics. Your evidence is that your circle of friends and acquaintances don't seem to have this issue.

On the flip side, I can point to thousands of Twitter posts, mere hours after someone makes a fake claim about PoC playing elves in the new Amazon LotR series. Additionally, I can point to international headlines about protests when a theater company casts Hermione with a black actor. On and on and on. Heck, the fact that they might cast a black actor as James Bond, and this actually matters, is in the news right now.

On and on and on. Race is in the news in our genre all the time. I'm having a really hard time thinking that this is only limited to academics. Again, you need to produce some evidence to back up your opinion. Because, honestly, from where I'm standing, your opinion isn't carrying a lot of weight.

 

[Bedrockgames]

[MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION] - ok, you're claiming that this is a corner issue that only comes up with very small groups of academics. Your evidence is that your circle of friends and acquaintances don't seem to have this issue.

On the flip side, I can point to thousands of Twitter posts, mere hours after someone makes a fake claim about PoC playing elves in the new Amazon LotR series. Additionally, I can point to international headlines about protests when a theater company casts Hermione with a black actor. On and on and on. Heck, the fact that they might cast a black actor as James Bond, and this actually matters, is in the news right now.

On and on and on. Race is in the news in our genre all the time. I'm having a really hard time thinking that this is only limited to academics. Again, you need to produce some evidence to back up your opinion. Because, honestly, from where I'm standing, your opinion isn't carrying a lot of weight.

I never said race isn’t in the news, nor did I say racism wasn’t a problem. I am saying arguments about orcs or dungeons being colonialist tropes are highly academic (though I did state they’ve filtered into the broader online culture). Like I said above, we are repeating ourselves. I have given my point of view and I am not an academic, so I am not going to pull out quotes from sociology text books. And yes this stuff plays out on Twitter. I don’t know that is a healthy thing though. I have certainly noticed any time a movie comes out, it gets framed online along these kinds of issues. I think it is pretty crazy to get worked up because elves might be black in s newLord of the Rings (also think it’s crazy when people act like your a bad personality if you don’t like the newest ghost busters). I get that media has been made the place where these ideas get battled for some strange reason. I don’t think it resolves anything for us to take the battle there. We would be much better off using talented minds like Prmerton’s to directly confront things like the human biodiversity movement than confronting people who agree with him politically but don’t see a problem with media that is deemed problematic. Honestly I really could have used good arguments against the alt right and human biodiversity when I found myself contending with their defenders. At the time I found it very easy to seek out arguments on why orcs are problematic but not on why human biodiversity is misguided. I just don’t think going after people’s entertainment will get the results people want here.