Item Creation and the error of loosing Experience

3rdedreichcommander · Nov 19, 2003

Experience as defined in the 3rd. Ed. PHB is A numerical measurement of a character's personal achievement and advancement. So why then when you reach the 3rd level it suddenly becomes a tradeable commodity? I'm talking item creation.
I mean what does this system actually reflect? Ok, Tethllar since you decided to make a +5 Longsword of Bursting Chain Lightening you loose x amount of gold in materials, spend x amount of time, and by the way you have effectively erased your childhood (or worse yet everything you remember within the last six years including the reason you made the sword).
Things get even funnier when you play in the Rokugan Campain setting in which their suppliment Way of the Samuari has many katas in which you spend experience every time you do a kata. And this is taking it from a logical point of view. There is of course the reasoning that XP is something that is often worked hard for and when something like this pops-up the player typically chooses not to get Item creation Feats or said Katas which are both very advantageous or agrees to the experience thing with much disdain.
I'd love to include many of the XP spending things into my game but without the XP cost. I'm not saying here though that I don't think something extra should be done about Items or Katas or whatever else exists out there, I just need an alternative.

Für Gott und D&d

Hecateus · Nov 19, 2003

As I see it, magic items are just an extension of the caster's soul. They squirrel away parts of themselves in the bet that this will increase the development of their soul...even if the item is handed to another.

Game wise I would make it very easy for a scryer to spy on users of items given out. Similar to, say, The One Ring in LOTR...it is always a part of it's maker.

Yair · Nov 19, 2003

Hecateus said:
As I see it, magic items are just an extension of the caster's soul. They squirrel away parts of themselves in the bet that this will increase the development of their soul...even if the item is handed to another.

Game wise I would make it very easy for a scryer to spy on users of items given out. Similar to, say, The One Ring in LOTR...it is always a part of it's maker.

An interesting idea. I just might enter it into my house rules.

The idea that XP represents the character's soul or essence in an implicit one in the D&D rules, and not well supported. In some respects it seems to work, in others it fails. Nevertheless, this is how I interpert it as well.
I am not pleased with the current system either, but I suppose it works, to an extent. I've even allowed other PCs to give XP instead of the item-crafter, to encourage them to create magic items to their liking and to use their item-creation feats. It may not be balanced, but balance is not everything. Not even close.

For an alternative way of crafting magic items, I believe the Artificer's Handbook (?) supposedly uses an entirely different system, and I believe it was praised as being good and sound.

Another, similar, idea is to have any permament item-crafting incur a Con loss, or at least a chance for a Con loss. (You can couple it with temporary Con loss for temporary items.) This will certainly have a tremendous impact on the number of produced magic items, though I tend to think it will also lead to an explosion of Con-enhancing items.
This, of course, is instead of an XP loss.

Another option is to keep a seperate tally of XP used for magic-item creation. It just gets increased, up to the character's XP total, to make magic items - thus limits their amount.
Or you could tie up total magic-items created to caster-level directly; either in XP or in actual numbers. You can also not count such XP if the item is not on the person, possibly resulting in negative levels but not level loss; this allows for that LotR theme, where the wizard can gain much of his lost power if he regains his lost ring/staff/whatever (he does not have access to lots of XP he spent on the staff).

You can also simply increase the gp price needed, control character wealth tightly, and forgo XP costs entirely. This may lead to an abundance of low-powered magic items at high levels, but that shouldn't be a real problem.
Similarly, you can demand unique material components ("the feather of a pheonix"), which must be quested for, for forging the item.

These are pretty much all the options I can think of; I'm sure there are more.

CCamfield · Nov 19, 2003

3rdedreichcommander said:
I mean what does this system actually reflect? Ok, Tethllar since you decided to make a +5 Longsword of Bursting Chain Lightening you loose x amount of gold in materials, spend x amount of time, and by the way you have effectively erased your childhood (or worse yet everything you remember within the last six years including the reason you made the sword).

Nothing suggests that item creators actually forget events in their past for spending experience - and the rules specifically state that you cannot spend so much XP that you'd lose a level.

Xair, I think your idea of keeping a separate tally but I don't know if using the actual XP costs as they are now would be balanced. If the XP is actually not spent then the limit should be lower, or the cost higher. Like, what if the character's total XP was effectively the maximum amount of gold that could be spent on creating items?

I heard the Artificer's Handbook is good too. (It's got two 4-star reviews here at ENWorld.)

Hecateus · Nov 19, 2003

Another option is to keep a seperate tally of XP used for magic-item creation. It just gets increased, up to the character's XP total, to make magic items - thus limits their amount.
Or you could tie up total magic-items created to caster-level directly; either in XP or in actual numbers. You can also not count such XP if the item is not on the person, possibly resulting in negative levels but not level loss; this allows for that LotR theme, where the wizard can gain much of his lost power if he regains his lost ring/staff/whatever (he does not have access to lots of XP he spent on the staff).

Nifty! RE: getting xp from non-spellcasters for items and such:
This does tie into my nascent campaign world; ie the Ancients, "sicko Elves of Olde", created dungeons full of treasure and traps, and 'grew' heroes (Tamagotchi for Evil Demigods). Only eventually the would be heroes would innevitably be captured by the vastly superior Ancients and would be sucked dry of any magic potential their experience would give...an inneficient process...to keep their immoral civilization afloat in their sky islands yadayada. One Magic negating Cataclysm later, the ancients are gone (mostly), but their treasure and trap rich dungeons remain! ...along with other surprises and a quest to dominate the future of VVoreld!

MarauderX · Nov 19, 2003

Actually, I GIVE XP for item creation. I also make it slightly dangerous, there is no automatic success, and usually takes twice as long and costs twice as much as the 3.5 rules. Why? Cause the caster is risking it, and I don't buy that 'tapping some piece of his magical being' explanation. Either that or I'm still clinging on to some OD&D rules that seem to be much better IMO. Casters deserve the rewards of making the item, otherwise why bother?

I will post my rules again whenever I get my hard-drive working... it could be a few days.

MarauderX · Nov 19, 2003

here we go... didn't take as long as I thought.

Way back in the days of Original D&D, XP was actually earned for attempting magic item creation, as sometimes there were hefty risks involved. I am bringing it back that way, as a caster spends more money on better materials and takes more time to get the creation correct. I incorporated a percentage roll that allowed for a good chance of failure if the wizard was in a hurry or the material wasn't pure, etc. This is the formula that I have developed and will use:

(50%x Base cost factor) + (INT mod)x2 + (Caster Level)x2 + (1 per day of preparation/Spell level) – (Item creation level).

The base cost factor would be 1.0 if the normal cost was spent, and 0.005 per 1% over/under the cost spent. So for example it would be 0.95 if only 90% of the cost was spent, 1.05 if 110% of the cost was spent, and so on. A maximum of 200% of the cost is the cap for a base cost factor of 1.5.

A few examples -
1st level wizard, 11 INT, 1 day, normal cash to scribe a scroll of sleep(1st level):
(50%x1)+0+2+(1/1) = 53%
Not too good, but not the best wizard either.

18th level wizard, 20 INT, 20 days, -10% cash to scribe a scroll of fireball:
(50%x0.95)+10+36+(20/3) = 100+%

Now say that same 18th level wizard tries creating the same scroll in 1 day:
(50%x0.95)+10+36+(1/3) = 100+%

Keep in mind a roll of 00 (100%) is an automatic failure no matter what the bonuses, and 01 (1%) is automatic success no matter the penalties.

Consequences of failure could be nothing, or could result explosions, fires, or other magically produced effects that may result in a character’s death, disintegration, or even possible subservience to a creature from the outer planes. Any failure side effects will pertain to the item researched, so trying to create a wand of magic missles may run the risk of damage and a ring of summon monster just might get you enslaved by the monster if done wrong.

Along with these rules for my campaign, I have separate 'Failure Results' tables for item creation, with some pretty nifty results for all sorts of spell levels ripped from the BoVD among others.

Yair · Nov 19, 2003

MarauderX said:
Way back in the days of Original D&D, XP was actually earned for attempting magic item creation, as sometimes there were hefty risks involved. I am bringing it back that way, as a caster spends more money on better materials and takes more time to get the creation correct....

While I like the idea in principle, I don't want it in my D&D game. Rewarding XP for actual learning experiences is good in principle, but I reserve this to more realistic and skill-based systems. For example, making magic items in Ars Magica improves your Magic Theory score. That's fine. Making a magic wand in D&D [if it grants XP] can increase your level as a... barbarian... ? And make you sneak around better...?!
Doesn't make sense to me.
I know I can house-rule till tomorrow and end up with a Challenge System that will mimic real-life as much as I like it too [altough to be really realisitic it better be skill based - no increasing hp by default, only by traininig towards that goal, etc.]. But that won't be D&D. Well, not D&D as I play it.
Perhaps for a more realisitic campaign. For my current one, I want high-adventure and keeping house rules to a reasonable amount, so it's a no-no

I settled for the core rules on that one, and added the interpertation of "essence" to ease my conscious

Along with these rules for my campaign, I have separate 'Failure Results' tables for item creation, with some pretty nifty results for all sorts of spell levels ripped from the BoVD among others.

Out of sheer curiousity - what part of the BoVD? I don't quite remember something like that.

Yair · Nov 19, 2003

CCamfield said:
Xair, I think your idea of keeping a separate tally but I don't know if using the actual XP costs as they are now would be balanced. If the XP is actually not spent then the limit should be lower, or the cost higher. Like, what if the character's total XP was effectively the maximum amount of gold that could be spent on creating items?

Hmm. I am not sure how that will work out, but just looking at the scale of things a 1st level character will make less than 1,000 gp worth of magic items by this rule - a bit low, but managable - but a 20th level character will make, throughout her career, less than 200,000 gp worth of gear! That means all the 200,000 gp magic items were made by epic characters [ok, there aren't a lot of these, but still], and worse: it means a character carries around more that it can make... and that's when a character is supposed to make items for the rest of the party too, presumably...
I think the cost is too high. Perhaps something in the middle. (XP/10? XP/5?)