Half-nymph? Half-drow/half-orc? How would you do it?

Gelatinous_Janitor · Oct 25, 2017

templates

(sorry, unable to just post the links at this time)

for half-nymph, consider the half-fey template (Forgotten Realms)

half-drow *does* have an existing template, in Races of Faerun

I'm pretty sure half-fey also appears in another book but unable to find it...

[alright, may have the computer working properly now...]

https://www.google.com/search?q=hal...0j69i57j0l2.5727j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Drow_(3.5e_Race)

and, bonus!...

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Nymph_(3.5e_Race)

obviously these are a couple of editions back, but you could compare how racial stats have changed between then and now for the base races and make comparable adjustments for play balance...

The one thing to remember in creating new races, besides balance, is once you've done it, if your players liked it, they'll want to do it, too (anyone remember Drizzt? he asked sarcastically). Even if you've gone to great lengths to make the backstory so unique the players would be hard-pressed to duplicate it, it will simply inspire many to creative new heights to control such a character for themselves! This isn't a bad thing, just be prepared. Unless the all the orcs or drow in your setting have since been wiped out, you may have a hard time dissuading your players from making your creation less unique with one of their own.

Slit518 · Oct 25, 2017

Interesting fun fact, in the LotR mythos, Dark Elves and Orcs are the same thing.

Celebrim · Oct 25, 2017

Slit518 said:
Interesting fun fact, in the LotR mythos, Dark Elves and Orcs are the same thing.

Actually, no they are not. The concept of a "Dark Elf", or "moriquendi", only appears a few times in the Tolkien legerdemain. It refers to Elves which, upon seeing the Valar, fled or hid, or otherwise refused to begin the Great Journey to Valinor. They were called 'dark' not because of their skin color, but because they had never beheld the light of Aman. While some of these elves were likely captured by Morgoth and corrupted (perhaps by blending with men) to produce Orcs, at least some of those elves escaped and continued to live in the East in solitude. The most famous of these was the dark elf smith, Eöl, who produced the most famous (or infamous) sword in the stories, the intelligent, black bladed sword, Anglachel, that was forged from the heart of a meteor. But Eöl was certainly not an orc, but a kinsman of the Sinda that had began the Great Journey but turned aside when they saw how beautiful the land they were passing through was.

Ironically perhaps, the Noldor - or "High Elves" of Tolkien's stories were with the exception of one family noted for their dark hair, so as a Sinda it's entirely possible that Eöl was blond or had light brown hair, while many of the elves of the stories actually had black (Elrond) or dark brown (Legolas) hair. This is not the way that Tolkien's work is usually illustrated. (I should note that Legolas's hair color is one of the most debated points of Tolkien lore there is, since we are not given his hair color explicitly. There are good arguments on both sides, since for example his father was known to be golden haired, but the majority of his people were known to have dark hair.)

Slit518 · Oct 25, 2017

Celebrim said:
Actually, no they are not. The concept of a "Dark Elf", or "moriquendi", only appears a few times in the Tolkien legerdemain. It refers to Elves which, upon seeing the Valar, fled or hid, or otherwise refused to begin the Great Journey to Valinor. They were called 'dark' not because of their skin color, but because they had never beheld the light of Aman. While some of these elves were likely captured by Morgoth and corrupted (perhaps by blending with men) to produce Orcs, at least some of those elves escaped and continued to live in the East in solitude. The most famous of these was the dark elf smith, Eöl, who produced the most famous (or infamous) sword in the stories, the intelligent, black bladed sword, Anglachel, that was forged from the heart of a meteor. But Eöl was certainly not an orc, but a kinsman of the Sinda that had began the Great Journey but turned aside when they saw how beautiful the land they were passing through was.

Ironically perhaps, the Noldor - or "High Elves" of Tolkien's stories were with the exception of one family noted for their dark hair, so as a Sinda it's entirely possible that Eöl was blond or had light brown hair, while many of the elves of the stories actually had black (Elrond) or dark brown (Legolas) hair. This is not the way that Tolkien's work is usually illustrated. (I should note that Legolas's hair color is one of the most debated points of Tolkien lore there is, since we are not given his hair color explicitly. There are good arguments on both sides, since for example his father was known to be golden haired, but the majority of his people were known to have dark hair.)

What I was getting at, is how the orcs were originally elves, that were tortured for hundreds, if not thousands of years, twisting their minds, bodies, and souls, warping their beings entirely. Those orcs were in turn filled with malice and contempt for life. Seeing as their society (if you want to call it that), revolved around murder, treachery, etc... is similar to the D&D dark-elf. So, in a sense, the orcs are the dark (as in evil, not color) version of the elves. They were forged from elves, and filled with darkness.

Celebrim · Oct 25, 2017

Slit518 said:
What I was getting at, is how the orcs were originally elves, that were tortured for hundreds, if not thousands of years, twisting their minds, bodies, and souls, warping their beings entirely. Those orcs were in turn filled with malice and contempt for life. Seeing as their society (if you want to call it that), revolved around murder, treachery, etc... is similar to the D&D dark-elf. So, in a sense, the orcs are the dark (as in evil, not color) version of the elves. They were forged from elves, and filled with darkness.

Yes, but what I'm getting at is that there is something in Tolkien called a "Dark Elf" that is clearly not the same as an orc, and that at least the name of Tolkien's "Dark Elves" are probably part of the inspiration for Gygax's Drow just as Tolkien elves are clearly the inspiration for D&D elves generally. One way we know that is that the major divisions of elves in Tolkien lore are High, Grey, Wood, and Dark, and sure enough in D&D the early published elvish races are High, Grey, Wood and Dark.

Tolkien "Dark Elves" are not however dark of skin or hair, or at least not clearly darker of skin or hair than other elves. But it is easy to imagine that someone casually familiar with the lore encountering the term might assume that a "Dark Elf" is physically darker than other elves. And, given that the one "Dark Elf" we are really introduced to Eöl is a fairly murderous traitorous sort that was fond of poisons, it's easy to imagine that dark elves were more evil than the other sort.

Likewise, clearly the inspiration for D&D orcs (and hence all orcs since then, such as World of Warcraft orcs), are Tolkien orcs. Ditto goblins and hobgoblins (which outside of Tolkien, are fairies and not well, a sort of orc).

Slit518 · Oct 25, 2017

Celebrim said:
Yes, but what I'm getting at is that there is something in Tolkien called a "Dark Elf" that is clearly not the same as an orc, and that at least the name of Tolkien's "Dark Elves" are probably part of the inspiration for Gygax's Drow just as Tolkien elves are clearly the inspiration for D&D elves generally. One way we know that is that the major divisions of elves in Tolkien lore are High, Grey, Wood, and Dark, and sure enough in D&D the early published elvish races are High, Grey, Wood and Dark.

Tolkien "Dark Elves" are not however dark of skin or hair, or at least not clearly darker of skin or hair than other elves. But it is easy to imagine that someone casually familiar with the lore encountering the term might assume that a "Dark Elf" is physically darker than other elves. And, given that the one "Dark Elf" we are really introduced to Eöl is a fairly murderous traitorous sort that was fond of poisons, it's easy to imagine that dark elves were more evil than the other sort.

Likewise, clearly the inspiration for D&D orcs (and hence all orcs since then, such as World of Warcraft orcs), are Tolkien orcs. Ditto goblins and hobgoblins (which outside of Tolkien, are fairies and not well, a sort of orc).

Did Tolkein happen to describe what the dark-elves looked like? Were they pale? Were they just elves with evil intent? And I think you mentioned that they never saw the light of Aman? I assume Aman is a deity that fills beings with good or good intent?

Celebrim · Oct 25, 2017

Slit518 said:
Did Tolkein happen to describe what the dark-elves looked like? Were they pale? Were they just elves with evil intent? And I think you mentioned that they never saw the light of Aman? I assume Aman is a deity that fills beings with good or good intent?

It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.

In Tolkien, to possess knowledge of light is to be literally 'Enlightened'. All light is in some sense flowing out from Illuvatar, the source of all knowledge, truth, and goodness. The Valar were gifted with light from being in the presence of Illuvatar. The most beloved Valar, Elbereth Glithoniel the star-kindler, shared light with Middle Earth, and became the first light than the elves beheld. The Dark Elves are the family or families of elves that never left the original elven home far in the East. As a result, they had little or no contact with the Valar, and as such less knowledge of the ways of Illuvatar. They weren't necessarily more evil than other elves, but since they were literally 'unenlightened', they would have been more prone to error and evil than other elves (and in this way, would have been more like Men). Those elves that journeyed all the way to Valinor, which is another word for the land of Aman, and who saw the light of the two trees clearly before Morgoth destroyed them, became the High Elves. Those that tarried on the journey or turned aside became the Grey Elves, which included the Green Elves or Wood Elves who had turned aside the soonest.

We don't know what Dark Elves looked like, but presumably they looked just like other elves typically looked - fair skinned, tall, with very dark brown hair.

Sunseeker · Oct 25, 2017

For the nymph? Simplest solution would be to take the nymph modifiers, halve them and turn them into stat adjustments that replace the humans.

The 3.5 Guidebook to Half-Breeds has a Houri, half-nymph/elf which is pretty close. But it's a +5 LA and gets all kinds of powerful stat boosts. I'd say you could easily half those and call it good and end up with a LA+2.

As for orc/elf, when I was allowed to have a signature I used to have the quote "The half-orc/half-elf is a human." Which isn't really that inaccurate when you think about it. You'd be prettier than an orc, longer lived than an orc, stronger and heartier than an elf, but less than all of those things...which pretty much gives you a human.

Humor aside, the main point is that a half-elf/half-orc would be a really diverse breed and would probably lean towards highly variable stat bonuses.

Half-nymph? Half-drow/half-orc? How would you do it?

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