Is D&D unforgiving of mistakes in combat?

Quasqueton · Sep 2, 2004

A discussion that came up in my group several times is how it is hard to tell you may be getting in over your heads in a battle before you are actually fully engaged against the enemy. It is difficult to judge an opponent before actually "coming to blows" with that opponent. And it is not easy to withdraw from a combat once it is started.

I've noticed in my campaign that most PCs/Players never bother with taking captives and questioning them. I've seen many times when a downed enemy with info on what's "in the next room" (so to speak) is left to bleed to death (while being looted) rather than stablized and questioned.

And it seems that PCs always hit an encounted enemy hard and fast, with everything the party can throw at them. In many ways, this is wise -- it takes out the bad guys before the bad guys can do something nasty back to the PCs. But in some ways it is bad -- once you jump fully into a mess, it is difficult to climb back out quickly.

Do you find this to be true? Is this a D&D thing, or is this common in all combat oriented RPGs?

Quasqueton

billd91 · Sep 2, 2004

It ain't just true for combat-based RPGs. History is full of similar examples of countries doing the same thing: jumping into a fight somewhere without really understanding the full ramifications of what it may have to deal with. Britain did it in Sudan to their considerable loss and they did it again in the Falklands but got a whole lot luckier that time. Come to think of it, British history is full of examples of this sort of behavior and all over the globe.

So your players leap before they look? That's part of the fun of gaming, seeing what happens. Thankfully, they get to behave like this when the consequences are just pencil and paper and not blood and bone. Perhaps a few TPKs would start to break them of this.

jester47 · Sep 2, 2004

I think it is somthing that is common to combat as a concept in general. When you start a fight, its really hard to stop until someone goes down or backs down. When groups fight, things are always uglier because of host of peer pressures go to work and these are very hard to overcome.

I think the overuse of deadly force however is particular from group to group. Apparently your players/PCs are of the sort to shoot first and ask questions later.

Aaron.

Jupp · Sep 2, 2004

Yeah, we have the same thing happening in our groups an it is certainly not only a D&D thing. I play in three groups with different systems. D&D, Runequest and Midgard with different players in those groups and it seems that its not a game system thing but something that comes from the players. Well, perhaps since some of the players did play OD&D or AD&D before changing systems they got indoctrinated with a certain style of play but still, it's there.

Most of the time we try to get out of an encounter as healthy as possble and that means to hit the other side as hard and fast as possible. I think the only occasions where we actually let an oponent life was when the DM intervened and took full control over the enemy. But aside from that we generally try to make a clean table.

I think our DM would have to "educate" us to take captives instead of cutting their throats. It would take some time but in the end we would get the hint and think about it next time we have that half dead thief lying in front of us

At least you gave me the kick to do that next time so this post already helped at least one other fellow gamer

Quasqueton · Sep 2, 2004

Also I notice a great tendancy to want to push as hard as possible even against a provably unmovable wall. I've seen many times how PCs will stick in a loosing fight because they have the idea that "one more round" will turn it around. I've also seen PCs with the ability to escape dismiss the idea to continue geting their butts kicked.

A case in point (I was not the DM):

2 PCs were getting creamed in melee combat by a bugbear monk. The PCs had only scratched the monk, but the monk was nailing them with almost every attack. Then the monk backed off a moment to laugh and sneer. The PCs had the perfect opportunity to flee (I suspect the DM pulled the monk away to give them the chance to survive), but instead they pull out their range weapons and shoot at the monk. So the monk jumped back on them and emptied the can of whoop-ass.

Quasqueton

Henry · Sep 2, 2004

It's up to the DM to stress how your character would perceive the danger of a given opponent; if the players however ignore this, and proceed anyway, then it's not up to the system, it's up to them.

Even if your supposition is true, personally, I don't mind a small element of unfairness, because TOO much hand-holding for the players by the system or the DM leads to a lack of verisimilitude. In a game over-the-top like Feng Shui, I can understand the bias in the PC's favor, because you're simulating action movies where larger than life heroes mow down hordes of mooks in spectacular style. But with a more default D&D game, I want some element of risk for those who flout the most basic of common sense.

In real life, a 4-on-1 fight is fatal 99% of the time; in D&D, those are heroes' odds.

In real life, someone fighting hundreds of foes without superior defense and firepower is completely impossible.

In D&D, I expect the same outcome.

In Feng Shui or Exalted, I would expect the stalwart hero to lean over to his sidekick and say, "Ok, you take the left 45, and I'll take the right 50."

Zappo · Sep 2, 2004

I think it has nothing to do with D&D being more or less combat-oriented. It is a natural consequence of the wildly variable power level of D&D characters and creature. Two beings that look rather similar can easily have vastly different abilities. In these conditions, the possibility of jumping into an unexpectedly hard combat are much higher. There are combat-light games (the old world of darkness comes to mind) where parties have the exact same problem.

DarkMaster · Sep 2, 2004

billd91 said:
jumping into a fight somewhere without really understanding the full ramifications of what it may have to deal with. Britain did it in Sudan to their considerable loss and they did it again in the Falklands but got a whole lot luckier that time. Come to think of it, British history is full of examples of this sort of behavior and all over the globe.
.

What about the modern US, Vietnam, Iraq, among others?

My NPC rarely fight to death against the PC, they are not stupid, Hey they just killed half of our group and we barely scratch them. They usually try to flee if possible or surender.

My PC usually prefer when their opponent surrender, they usually question them, when they got what they want, they either kill them or let them go depending on the attitude and their trust in their opponent

DanMcS · Sep 2, 2004

Quasqueton said:
2 PCs were getting creamed in melee combat by a bugbear monk. The PCs had only scratched the monk, but the monk was nailing them with almost every attack. Then the monk backed off a moment to laugh and sneer. The PCs had the perfect opportunity to flee (I suspect the DM pulled the monk away to give them the chance to survive), but instead they pull out their range weapons and shoot at the monk. So the monk jumped back on them and emptied the can of whoop-ass.

Well, the players, not being mindreaders, probably didn't know why the monk backed away. They did know the rules of the game, though, and those make it fantastically difficult to end combat with anything other than one side down for the count. Especially against a faster opponent like a monk, you can't escape combat without something like a dimension door or other transportation magic. They knew that, so they knew the only way out (one way or the other) was to try to put some hurt on the monk.

I don't really like that aspect of the game, but it exists. It makes it hard to escape fights without feeling like the DM just let you go. It also makes it hard for the DM to have a villain escape and recur. "What do you mean, he went around the corner and disappeared? He moved 50' to get around the corner so he couldn't have activated an item, there's no cover or concealment in that hall so he can't be hiding, you cheated."

Rel · Sep 2, 2004

I think this tendency is common but not universal by any means. My last two PC's have been counter examples.

I'm currently playing in an AU campaign as a Verrik Mind Witch. Thanks to my Witch Sight, I can observe potential foes and determine what class and level they are (this is kind of "metagamey" but we try and describe it based on their aura like the ability says). So provided a bit of time, I can guage how tough opponents are likely to be.

Also, all of this PC's primary attacks deal subdual damage and his spells are focused on mind reading sorts of stuff. So I almost always capture and interrogate enemies after the battle.

The PC I played previous to this was a Halfling Rogue who was big on scouting the opposition before attacking. He also maintained a sizable "bag of tricks" in the form of his Heward's Handy Haversack. I stuffed it full of single use magic items and alchemical stuff to provide for getaways if we got in over our heads. Quall's Feather Token - Tree, Potions of Expeditious Retreat, Haste and Invisibility and a healthy supply of Tanglefoot Bags were all things that he regularly spent substantial chunks of loot on.

On one particular occasion we got ambushed by some Scrags as we camped on a beach. It would have been a TPK if I hadn't thrown down a QFT - Tree, hit the Scrags with some Tanglefoot bags and then run around sniping at them with my crossbow until they retreated. And there were several times that I'd likely have been nabbed by the constabulary without a handy Potion of Invisibility.

I can't recall which movie character said it, but I'm a big believer in the quote, "Never walk into a room that you don't know how to walk out of."

Or "run out of" as the case may be.

P.S. Quasqueton, I ran into a guy this past weekend at a triathalon who looked so much like you that I had to go up and ask if it was you. It wasn't.

But you've got somebody who is your (very slightly shorter and stockier) twin in Cary.