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4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

pemerton

Legend
I've never had a big issue with "protagonism." The characters that the players are playing are the center of the action. I feel like this is true for any RPG being run well. This doesn't mean they can dictate the terms of the world, but their goals and the actions they take are absolutely center stage.

<snip>

I don't quite understand what elements of 4e help out with this in play.

It's possibly a terminology problem.
I don't think it's a terminology issue.

As well as "being the centre of the action", which is true of the PCs in any typical RPG, and as well as "dictating the terms of the world", which is the province of the GM in any traditional RPG and in default 4e also, there is also "a player having the mechanical resources and capability to signficantly shape his/her PCs fate". The last of these things varies significantly across RPGs. In default Call of Cthulhu the players have almost no capacity to shape their PCs' fates. That's part of the point of Call of Cthulhu - as a player you play your PC's descent into madness and/or depravity.

I've also not had any issue with "heroism." The characters have goals that they want to accomplish, and they go try to accomplish them, overcoming obstacles to do so. I feel like this is also true of any RPG being run well.
Classic D&D takes a different approach from 4e to PC heroism. It tends to make a lot of PC advancement dependent upon successfully achieving various epsiodes of action resolution: you have to, in game, find a friendly NPC to train you; if a paladin, you have to, in game, play out the recruitment of your warhorse; if seeking to become an Immortal (in Mentzer's BECMI), you have to, in game, achieve a range of complex and difficult goals.

Contrast 4e's epic destinies - to get one for your PC, all you have to do is reach 21st level, and to reach 21st level all you have to do is turn up and play the game (XP and treasure accrual in default 4e basically being a function of play and nothing more). In 4e, then, the focus of play is not "Will I become a persona of epic cosmological proportions?" Rather, it is "Given that I've become a persona of epic cosmological proportions, what effect will I have on the cosmology?"

This also relates to protagonism. In a game in which earning PC advancement itself requires significant effort in terms of playing and succeeding at action resolution, the focus of play can become rather self-focused: "my guy" is off doing the stuff he needs to do to become better; self-aggrandizement is the focus of play. In 4e, in which PC advancement is simply a mechanical side effect of playing the game, the focus of play can become more outward-focused: "my guy" is out there changing the world, first as a local hero, but at the end of play as a demigod! That's a real difference from classic D&D, at least for me.

I think it has to be deeper than terminology, because it seems to come up a lot.

<snip>

I really do see 4e as offering something which older editions of D&D don't in the sense of control over one's character.

<snip>

Knowing what your character can do, you can go ahead and "protagonise" in the game. Only Lady Luck (in the shape of the dice) or the antagonists can stop you. That's being a protagonist as it should be!
I would add to this - knowing also what your PC can and will become matters too, because it permits a shift from play focused on self-advancement to play that is outwardly focused, and about changing the gameworld for its own sake. That's protagonism: engaging the gameworld because of what it is, rather than because by doing so you'll accrue a benefit for your PC.

4e encourages Protagonism by a lot of different devices - variable resources you can call on depending on how important you think the outcome is, various mechanisms protecting your PC from being taken out of play too quickly or too long, lots of elements telling you you're unusually important and backing it up with mechanics (culminating in Epic Destinies).

<snip>

While White Wolf and other '90s games may have some of the player-side elements I list above, their GM-side stuff is geared to de-Protagonise the PCs: Metaplot. Unkillable NPCs. Linear stories. Advice to use GM force to shuttle PCs down the rails and squelch any attempt to get off the tracks.
I make the decisions in-character and OOC. When the chips are down I spend the inner resources (Dailies, APs etc), and I get the results. To stop this happening, to deprotagonise me, the 4e GM has to actively break the rules
I agree with all this. Exactly right, on both the player and GM sides.

I've never felt like I didn't have genuine control over my PC's in any of the other e's I've played, and I don't detect any elements of 4e that enable PC control that other editions lacked.

Every edition of D&D has had the basic rule: When a player says their character does something, that happens.
This is only true if what the player says is something like "My guy tries to climb the cliff". If I say "My guy climbs the cliff" then that doesn't happen, in classic D&D, unless I'm a thief and roll well, or have access to spider-climbing magic.

4e has many more resources on the players side which permit one to express what one's PC does in external, not just internal "trying" language, and succeed: both in absolute terms (the various rogue Stealth buffing powers), in terms that are relative to the mechanical defaults of the game (the Mighty Sprint skill power is an example), and even in respect of actions the rules don't cover: because page 42 is set up in terms of DCs and damages that are level-relative, rather than ingame causally relative, the GM has far more support in saying yes.

An instance of "saying yes" using page 42 from my own game:

The PCs were tracking a purple worm which, under the control of Pazrael/Pazuzu, had swallowed a duergar theurge who was carrying a casket containing one fragment of the Rod of Seven Parts. The PCs' main goal was to recover the Rod fragment (the duergar, though their friend, had been given up as dead). Knowing that this might require going inside the worm, they stocked up on bags of lime (? - something which would be basic, and so neutralise the worm's acid - for the chemistry, I was following the players' lead) - one with the sorcerer and one with the fighter, they being deemed the two most likely to go into the worm.

When they met the worm, it quickly swallowed two of the PCs - the invoker and the sorcerer. Inside the worm they were able to grab the casket (the DC by level table gave me numbers to assess the difficulty of doing this sort of thing inside a purple worm's gullet). The sorcerer dropped his bag of limb, reducing the ongoing acid damage from 30 per round to 20 per round (4e's default damage reduction is 5 points per tier). He then used his 6th level utility power - the pillar of earth one from Heroes of the Elemental Chaos - to force open the worm's jaws so they could (i) get some light, and (ii) get out (the player argued - plausibly enough - that the worm, having burrowed through miles and miles of rock, must have enough dirt in its mouth to meet the material component requirement for the spell). Given that this is a non-standard use of the spell, I asked for an Arcana check for the sorcerer to summon enough power to do it: he rolled enough for Moderate but not Hard success, and so I levied a hit point penalty against him as he tried to marshall the chaotic forces (p 42, appropriately MM3-ed, gives me easy access to mechanically balanced damage expressions). The invoker, being concerned about the consequences of too much elemental chaos, used his Rod of 4 out of 7 Parts to try and contain the forces - his Arcana roll was in the middle too, and so he rather than the sorcerer internalised the damage, through his Rod. The sorcerer then succeeded at an escape check with a bonus for the worm's mouth being forced open, and flew out. The invoker was able to teleport out - normally you can't teleport out of being swallowed because you need line of sight, but in this case forcing the worm's mouth open granted line of sight.

Later in the encounter the fighter PC got swallowed, and was in danger of dying inside the worm, so the ranger-cleric flew into the worm's mouth on his carpet of flying - succeeding at an Acro check, and voluntarily taking swallow damage on his way in - so he could heal the fighter. They both then got regurgitated by the worm because it didn't want too people trying to kill it from the inside. It swallowed the invoker again and tried to tunnel off with 5 parts of the Rod, but the other PCs killed it before it could get underground.​

I could never have adjudiated this in Rolemaster, nor in Classic D&D - the tools (for setting ad hoc DCs, ad hoc damage, etc) just aren't there. Whereas 4e made it easy. And the result was a dramatic scene in which the fact that the worm is a giant monster that swallows you mattered, in detail, to the unfolding resolution; and the fact that the PCs are near-epic heroes who can fight there way into and out of the gullets of the worm was actually demonstrated in play, at a level of detail that allowed the differences in their personalities, and their capabilities, to emerge.

This is the sort of thing I think of when I think of protagonism in 4e.

For some groups it would obviously be too gonzo. (My own adjudication was inspired by a purple worm thread back in 2009, when someone complained about dying inside a worm and [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] replied that the rogue should have roped up and used Acro to go in on a rescue mission!) But for those groups there will be some less gonzo form of heroic fantasy that 4e can equally give robust support for.

[MENTION=27160]TO ME the key difference between 4e and 1e (as an example) is not player control of what their character can do. It is character durability and the assurance that your character's story arc can be explained in dramatic terms, and the fact that you can depend on being able to at least attempt to do cool and dramatic things in each scene without it being an insane risk that quickly kills you off, nor that all the cool plot defining action must by rule be reserved for one set of spell-casting archetypes.
To me, Come And Get It is me the player saying "My guy is like Neo in The Matrix, doing the beckoning hand gesture. They have to stop what they're doing and come to me..."

<snip>

A more process-simulation approach to CAGI would have it be a CHA-based attack vs Will, with penalties vs Artillery & Lurkers etc, and the result would be that it often would not work and my Fighter would suck
These two posts capture exactly what I mean when I say I wouldn't be able to run the purple worm fight in Rolemaster, nor (at leat as I understand it) in classic D&D. So many checks at every point of the process, only absurd luck would allow the players to get away with what they did. Plus the resolution would tend to go from mechanically heavy but dramatic (the stakes of each roll are clear) to even more mechanically heavy and risking bogging down in minutiae.

Very broad skills, you get better automatically at everything over time (except trained-only skill uses), and the GM is encouraged to 'say yes' to non-standard uses of skills. Pus the DCs are geared towards success. There's a step-on-up element re skill use, with a bit of that mother-may-I that some people hate

<snip>

I think that unlike the combat system it is relatively easy for a GM to de-protagonise PCs while sticking to the letter of the skill rules. You just have to ignore the 'say yes' advice, use level-scaled Hard DCs, disallow uses outside those specifically permitted, etc.
I think this is right about 4e's skill system. I think, particularly given the advice presented, it is harder to use well - on both player and GM sides - than combat encounter building and resolution.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Nentir Vale/PoL/Nerath should have been its own default setting for 4e; fully developed and supported.
For me, at least, part of what makes 4e work so well is that the default world is defined very strongly in thematic/trope terms - gods, primordials, Dawn War, a pending Dusk War, etc - but in terms of geography and historical detail is very light. That made it easy for me to use a different map for my game - the map from the old B/X module Night's Dark Terror - while using the 4e core setting holus bolus (I just ignore the - in my view reasonably ignorable - Fallcrest chapter of the DMG).

Too much detailed definition makes scene-framing play hard on the GM's side, because you run out of the narrative room to move that scene-framing play depends upon.

I tend to have a huge problem with "rare, special snowflakes" being a PC choice by default. How many Good-aligned drow have left the Underdark since 1988? Enough to fill a small city I'd wager. Nothing remains rare when presented as a PC choice.
Personally I don't see the problem here. The proportion of superheroes with tragic backstories probably exceeds the proportion of tragic backstories in the general population. It goes with the genre territory.

I mean, each of those "rare" PCs is unique in their own gameworld. (Unless you run a lot of PCs through the same world.) So while they may not be rare at the metagame level - as a trope - they are rare within their fiction. I mean, as far as my gameworld is concerned, the PC drow who worships Corellon and is part of a secret society aimed at undoing the sundering of the elves may be the only "good" (well, unaligned) drow in existence.
 

Hussar

Legend
Perhaps a shorter thought on protagonism. :D

In 3e, if I'm playing a rogue, there are a number of creatures that are outright immune to my sneak attack. I, as the player, have absolutely no control over this. If we meet a number of plant monsters (for example), the mechanics of the game have taken me from "The master stabber" to "Commoner with a knife".

Thus, the mechanics have, by and large, removed me as a protagonist, at least in this encounter. But, say we do an entire adventure featuring plant monsters. Sure, I might do a bit of scouting, but, by and large, my other strengths - party talky guy, and party trap guy - are pretty much removed. They're plants, they don't talk. And, by and large, shambling mounds don't build traps. At least, not very complex ones.

So, now, for the next four sessions (or however long it takes to resolve the scenario), I'm largely warming the pines. Very much de-protagonized. If that's a word. :D

Now, sure, the DM can get around this - he can add in other scenarios, he can simply not use this scenario, or whatever. Sure, that's possible. Or, we can change the base mechanics in such a way that the Rogue character is no longer sidelined. Sneak attack works on everything is not a terribly bad house rule. How does it work? Well, that's for the table to decide, if they want to.

I realize that this answer is not acceptable at some tables. From prior conversations on these boards, I know that some groups want this sort of thing absolutely nailed down in concrete terms before play starts. And that's fair. That group should probably avoid scenarios which sideline single PC's for extended times. And that's perfectly okay. OTOH, in a system which does not deprotagonize (gack, that is such a terrible made up word) PC's, the DM is now free to create whatever scenario and then leave it to the players to determine how things work.
 

pemerton

Legend
I have trouble understanding some of the terms Pemerton uses, especially 'Vanilla'.
I use it in the context of "vanilla narrativism", which means "narrativism without funky non-traditional techniques". There seems to be a common preconception that you can't play narrativist without giving players a lot of shared backstory authority, and/or formal mechanical devices for signalling what they care about (eg Burning Wheel beliefs). Whereas I (along with Ron Edwards) don't think this is true - the players can informally run up flags (if I'm playing a dwarf cleric of Moradin I probably want to fight goblins, orcs and/or giants!), and authority over backstory can be casually shared to help focus the game (eg my player who introduced the existence of his strange Drowish Corellon cult didn't have to use any formal PC build resources to do so).

That said, I've got nothing against non-vanilla narrativism. I just happen to find myself GMing slightly more traditional systems.

I understand that when Pemerton says 'High Concept Sim' it is a horrible Forgeist term that actually means Dramatic play emulating a story genre, as opposed to World-Simulation
If you think "story" is the dominant consideration you'll want to group narrativism and high concept sim together.

But I agree with Ron Edwards that if you think player control over the direction and resolution of play is the dominant consideration you'll want to group narrativism with gamism, while high concept sim (with Call of Cthulhu as the poster child) will be a type of simulationism - the players simply "explore" a story that is determined by the GM, perhaps adding a bit of local colour in the way they portray their PCs but otherwise not exercising control over the direction of play.

TL;DR: I think "whose story?" is more important than "is there story?".
 


If I had to throw in my two cents, sans the fluff, D&D differentiates itsself from other RPGs with it's versatility. Among all games, D&D probably needs the least amount of fluff. At it's core it's a system with various fantastical elements, through which many scales and types of fluff can be compounded upon. Where CoC is only useful for representing a Lovecraftian horror setting, where Deadlands only handles the Weird West, where Masquerade handles vampires, where system upon system specialize in order to cater to a specific, niche market, D&D does not. It's not particularly difficult to formulate a D&D game wherein the protagonists are vampires set in a post-apocalyptic Weird West/Middle Earth-hybrid beset by all manner of old ones from beyond the stars. Even Pathfinder, perhaps the closest system to D&D(for a lot of obvious reasons) relies heavily on it's Golarion setting to provide a backdrop to it's well...everything.

D&D is the rules, the systems, the generic, but not in the way that it produces generic fantasy, but in the manner that it is capable of taking generic fantasy elements from a wide spread of the genre and allowing people to create their own, highly unique experiences.

IMO: what separates D&D from the dozens of other fantasy games is not that it excells at telling a specific story or expounds upon a specific setting in great detail, but that it allows it's players to create personalized stories and settings unlike anything else on the market.

Ramathilis' question is of course an INTERESTING one, but my observation is that I come from an era of D&D (the early days, I started playing when Blackmoor was released or thereabouts, and my DMing really started with Holmes Basic) when there was almost no canon. Not only was there not canon but the attitude of those days was that canon was BS. The mark of a real serious DM was to create everything from whole cloth. Sure, you probably used the more typical canonical monsters, orcs, dragons, whatever by default as they were in the Monsters and Treasure book, but nobody could make up EVERYTHING. The whole book only had about 50 monsters in it anyway, and they were kinda vaguely defined.

So, NO! [MENTION=81446]RA[/MENTION]mathilis, D&D FOR ME is contrariwise not at all all of this detailed lore which was in any case grafted MUCH MUCH MUCH later in the history of the game, a dozen years after our playstyle and attitudes were set. All the 2e piling up of lore and settings and whatnot? To our group it was sort of puzzling, why spend your money buying OTHER PEOPLE'S lore??!! The idea was to be judged on the creativity and interest of YOUR lore and to validate it and flesh it out with play. Our group spent a dozen years trying to understand the workings of The Mountain and why the fate of heroes was always tied to walking one mountain path. It was COOL. Yeah, there were dragons and liches and beholders and whatever in that campaign and a LOT of that material was drawn at least partly from other D&D sources, but that DM wasn't going to drop stuff on you a certain way because it came out of a book, and if someone said "but a Succubus isn't a Devil, that can't happen, that's wrong!" we'd have all been like "WTF? What's he on about?"

I mean I can look at all the FR stuff Ed Greenwood did and that other people did and its like "Cool! They did a lot of neato stuff", but its not any more "correct" or deserves any more respect or pride of place than any other lore anyone else made up just because TSR printed it.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I mean I can look at all the FR stuff Ed Greenwood did and that other people did and its like "Cool! They did a lot of neato stuff", but its not any more "correct" or deserves any more respect or pride of place than any other lore anyone else made up just because TSR printed it.

I agree, and I don't see any particularly pressing reason D&D should be tied to a setting.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
I just plowed through all 34 pages. It was an interesting read. I never thought 4E was a bad system though after playing it I could see it was not a fit for me. To be honest a lot of what happened before and after it launched turned me off every giving WOTC money again which I got over in time. The ad campaign was pretty bad and rather insulting with the idea that we had not really been having fun before. I know I was not the only one who had the hackles up over it.

But I pre ordered the core books and when they came I have to admit I was rather aghast at what I was reading it did not fix anything I had ever had a problem with. But I wanted to play it because games play differently than they read. We played every week for three months. There were so many things each of disliked we hated combat it felt like we were just slogging through those.

I came here for advice and the sheer amount of edition warring by both sides turned me off I didn't come back for three years. My DM went to the WOTC boards for help DM and was blasted for wondering how the game would play if he changed healing surges to temporary hit points instead of permanent. There were some other issues as well I know he has never gone back.

Eventually we decided to go back to 3.5.

What I don't understand is why some people can't seem to accept that some people just don't like 4E and how it plays. And saying that this is because they are set in their ways or they don't play other systems or are just indulging in whining is just another form of edition warring.

If a game mainly works for you and what does not could be handled rather easily then having a new game come out and completely change how the game is played may not be welcomed simply because it is not what you wanted.

One of the reasons for me not to invest in any more 4E products ( though I had to have Dark Sun) was simple I looked at my shelves filled with everything from basic to 3.5 plus a lot of D20 supplements as well as a few other systems. I have been able to use a lot of my older things like Night Below with a 3.5 with online conversations. A lot of the fluff for the Realms still worked. It was obvious that they would not work with very easily with 4E. At my age with my budget limitations and all the books I have now some which I have not gotten to use in a game yet,I really felt that there was no need for me to buy 4E materials. And to be honest unless DnD next blows me away I don't know if I will invest in that either.

One of the things I am finding as I get older is I want less things. Things demand time and upkeep.

I read both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron books for 4E and while the Eberron didn't bug me as bad as the Forgotten Realms I was glad other settings were left alone. The changes in the Realms tuned me off to the point that I won't even read any fiction set in that time. Which made my fantasy book shelves happy less trying to fit new things on.

I know my experience is far from universal a good friend of mine left DnD around the time 3.5 came out he was burned out he hated so much about 3E. He basically got his gaming fix from computer games until 4E came out. He loves it he is DMing again. I think it is wonderful that it revitalized gaming for him and I know it did the same for others and yes it lost people. But I think this is something that should be expected we are not a bunch of drones all liking or wanting the same thing.

What gets my panties in a bunch is the insults and snide comments that surround this and trying to prove the other side is totally wrong. I find it interesting that when talking about issues in 3.5 and using a DM fix this is considered a symptom of a bad system but I have seen that advice given in many 4E threads on how to fix something. Then suddenly a DM fix is okay and a return to rule 0.

I just hope when 5E comes out we don't see more of this kind of fragmenting where we can't even discuss things without being insulting.
 

S'mon

Legend
In 4E, the game was now designed to go from level 1 to level 30 at the end. But, Raise Dead was now a ritual available at level 8. So, less than 30% of the way through a campaign and the players can perform the previously awesome feat of bringing somebody back from the dead. In terms of comparison, it's like a 1E/2E cleric getting access to level 2 spells. The spell/ritual has lost its wonder. It's no longer a special act to bring somebody back from the dead - it's routine.

I found that the Rituals system made it very easy to present Raise Dead in 4e as rare and wondrous. And AIR the game makes clear that most people cannot be Raised, so being brought back from the dead has always been a major event in my games. The first time it happened in 'Loudwater', the group had no idea the old woman they'd just met could do it; the raisee was so affected at being brought back from the Shadowfell that she immediately converted to the worship of Kelemvor, Judge of the Dead!
Ironically, 'Essentials' threatens to nerf this for us with the Warpriest class that casts Raise Dead a lot more like pre-4e, but I'm planning to keep the original fluff about it only working on a few people - those of destiny, perhaps. :D
 

S'mon

Legend
Contrast 4e's epic destinies - to get one for your PC, all you have to do is reach 21st level, and to reach 21st level all you have to do is turn up and play the game (XP and treasure accrual in default 4e basically being a function of play and nothing more). In 4e, then, the focus of play is not "Will I become a persona of epic cosmological proportions?" Rather, it is "Given that I've become a persona of epic cosmological proportions, what effect will I have on the cosmology?"

This also relates to protagonism. In a game in which earning PC advancement itself requires significant effort in terms of playing and succeeding at action resolution, the focus of play can become rather self-focused: "my guy" is off doing the stuff he needs to do to become better; self-aggrandizement is the focus of play. In 4e, in which PC advancement is simply a mechanical side effect of playing the game, the focus of play can become more outward-focused: "my guy" is out there changing the world, first as a local hero, but at the end of play as a demigod! That's a real difference from classic D&D, at least for me.

I would add to this - knowing also what your PC can and will become matters too, because it permits a shift from play focused on self-advancement to play that is outwardly focused, and about changing the gameworld for its own sake. That's protagonism: engaging the gameworld because of what it is, rather than because by doing so you'll accrue a benefit for your PC.

I agree strongly - and this is why 4e plays differently than and produces different stories than earlier editions (and is not particularly suitable for many old-school scenarios, as I found out running 'Vault of Larin Karr' in 4e). "You have this power - what do you do with it?" is much more reminiscent of (lowish-level) Superhero comics than of Gygaxian tropes.

One weird thing I've come across recently is that Paizo seem to write their Adventure Paths very much in the Superhero/4e mould, not the Gygaxian treasure-hunter mode, and the AP text is constantly straining against the 3e-based ruleset. It's really weird - they feel like they were written for a 4e-type game then shoehorned into a different game designed for a different purpose. I'm working on converting Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4e and I keep coming across "How to get around the 3e rules & default motivations so this adventure actually works" GM advice that in 4e I can happily ignore. Even with Goodman Games 'Dungeon Crawl Classics', most of them are written "An Ancient Peril Arises - What do you do?!" - 4e style, and not Gygaxian style "Dungeon is there - treasure is in there - go get it!". The one third party 3e company that did produce genuinely Gygaxian type adventures was Necromancer, making Vault of Larin Karr an almost uniquely unsuitable choice for my first 4e campaign. :)
 

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